Lucy Letby Court Case

[Pebble21uk]

Today has been the first day of the trial, which is expected to last for six months. One thread has already been pulled on the subject. Upon deletion MNHQ said that a thread about the case is fine but please read the rules around contempt of court before posting... these are copied and pasted here:
Publicly commenting on a court case:

You might be in contempt of court if you speak publicly or post on social media.
For example, you should not:
say whether you think a person is guilty or innocent
refer to someone’s previous convictions
name someone the judge has allowed to be anonymous, even if you did not know this
name victims, witnesses and offenders under 18
name sex crime victims
share any evidence or facts about a case that the judge has said cannot be made public

If any of the above take place then new threads will also be pulled. Let's please try and keep it going!

At what point was an increase in deaths noticed ? Did it continue after being initially identified I wonder why they didn’t start some kind of surveillance ?

I completely understand that it is a huge step to even contemplate mentioning concerns in an official capacity and could be seen as risky

But it shouldn't be risky and the NHS needs to sort itself out when it comes to whistleblowing. This case is obviously another level, going to criminal proceedings, but there have been so many cases, so many inquiries, so many "lessons learnt" and still those who raise concerns are ostracised and lose their jobs, rather than the Trust concerned dealing with concerns properly.

I cannot imagine what these parents are going through, listening to the prosecuting barrister. It's unbearable. I also agree with other posters - it seems chances to stop whatever was going on at this hospital were missed, which is unforgivable. Whatever the outcome of the case, there should be an independent inquiry into why and how these deaths (and at least one doctor's concerns) were ignored for so long.

I find the fact that Letby kept an image on her phone of the sympathy card she sent one of the families particularly troubling.

I realise irs very early days ,but there seems to be quite a lot of circumstantial evidence and the prosecution seem to be making a lot of LL ,s demeanour and behaviour which whilst a bit odd ,you can't base a case on odd and subjective opnion ,time will tell I guess.

I am finding the LL case so difficult to read about, but can't stop.

My twins are 4 now, and in school, but when they were in NICU there was one awful doctor who instructed me to leave the ward, against their policy about parents having 24/7 access except for cases where there were security concerns/ an emergency. She just kept saying 'why don't you leave now, mum?' to me over and over, whilst the other staff just stood and stared at me.

I felt I had to leave - another staff member came to my bedside later and apologised for her behaviour but I didn't know if I was allowed to go back.

When I returned the next morning at 9am, DT2's cot was empty and stripped. None of the new, daytime staff knew where she was. One just said they thought she had been 'very poorly during the night but was better and had been moved', but didn't have a location. Our NICU had several rooms, with an HDU and other bits. I just wandered them looking for DT2. I tried asking one lot of staff but they said they were 'wearing red aprons' so couldn't talk to me. Turned out later that 'red aprons' meant they were on a drugs round, but obviously I didn't know that.

I walked up and down the little rows of cots in different rooms until I did eventually find DT2. I was in bits by that time but so ashamed I was trying to stop the staff seeing me crying. Eventually a consultant asked me what was wrong and when I explained, he remarked to a senior nurse/ ward manager person who was with him 'we've been picked up on this kind of thing before'.

Tbh, I know I'm rambling massively, but the LL case just makes me think actually how easy it would be to get away with this. Parents have so little agency and you cannot guard your children all the time, and staff are so stretched they must often breach recommended ratios and so forth.

Regarding the doctor who had suspicions and intervened with Child K. I don't understand why if he didn't raise any concern with the hospital or whistleblow he didn't at least make a note of his suspicions somewhere for use at a later date.

I was a teacher for ten years and for any child where we had any suspicions of abuse, we would keep a written log, locked away in a classroom cupboard. This was added to by date when something 'wasn't right'. It was the first thing we were told to do (besides bring it to safeguarding lead's attention). This could be potentially used as evidence at a later date. LL diaries and written notes are being used, so presumably something like this would be admissible evidence as well.

This thread is Goulish, Vicarious and Sick!

Charge 15 Attempted Murder Child L April 9th 2016

By this time, the prosecution say, Letby was supposed only to be working day shifts because the consultants were concerned about the correlation between her presence and unexpected deaths and life-threatening episodes on the night-shifts.

It might just be the way it has been reported but consultants as a plural suggests multiple people now had concerns.

So LL should have been on day shifts from April however it was reported

On the night of June 2, Letby was on the shift and not the designated nurse for Child N.

I suppose it might be down to staffing issues.

I find the fact that Letby kept an image on her phone of the sympathy card she sent one of the families particularly troubling.

I agree with this. Once again it is circumstantial, but quite odd behaviour. I can understand sending a card when you have had the parents on the ward for some time and got to know them, even if it is not a usual occurrence. I have never heard of anybody taking a picture of an 'in sympathy' card they were sending.

The prosecution is claiming that LL kept trophies... such as a handwritten list of medication given to one of the children in a crisis deterioration, found at her home. LL says it must have been written at the time it was administered and she forgot about it and accidently took it home.

Are news articles about the case ghoulish, vicarious and sick, @Stangerthings?

Trophy is the word @Pebble21uk

"Claiming" is the word.

re the card thing: I have previously taken a phone pic of what I’ve written in a card before sending it to a friend or whatever. I have no idea why I do this. Possibly because I’m so used to texts or emails where you can always refer back to what you’ve written (although why I’d ever feel the need to refer back to a greeting card I’ve sent I have no idea) so I can only imagine what the police might think about random weird stuff on my phone if they ever looked! people are sometimes strange for non sinister reasons

Its all over the news .
People are bound to mske threads about it

When I first read about LL I wondered if it was a case of incompetent practice like the Dr Death case in the USA but there's so many bizarre things being reported. The defence will be interesting. The poor babies and their families 😢

@AquaticSewingMachine interesting what you have said about revising memories in the wake of LL's arrests.

@JohnnyMcGrathSaysFuckOff that must have been unbelievable traumatic for you. You are so right - patients have precious little agency. I have been an inpatient in hospital recently myself and the feeling of powerlessness was overwhelming at times.

I get that ,I was always ,taking bits of paper with random blood ,pressures ,things I had jotted down about patients to do lists etc home by accident, people have Bern known to take the drug trolley keys home, etc

@x2boys I also understand that - I have bought things home by mistake from school which would be subject to data protection.
I think it's the fact that LL kept them and they were found in her home at a later date that the prosecution is leaning on. In my experience you would either return or destroy them when you realised you had them.

The worrying thing is that all the evidence I have seen so far seems circumstantial…

I started off thinking this case would be straight forward with an obvious outcome, but now I don’t know. Although clearly LL seemed to be involved around all the victims which is really suspicious. And she certainly has shown some odd behaviour.

I wonder if that’s enough though, if the evidence is all circumstantial?

Again, I agree. On my ICU, the drugs keys had a big item attached to stop this because it was so common. People are in a hurry, grab the keys from a colleague, open the drug cupboard and get the drugs, then need their hands to carry the drugs, possibly a fluid bag or two, so shove the keys in their pocket. Only when someone else needs to use the drug cupboard does the search begin, and a nurse from the shift before says 'I've got them, I'll be there in 10 minutes!'

Handover sheets should go in the confidential waste bins but again, people get behind, handover, perhaps stop to check their notes are correct, that pressure area charts are signed, that cannula monitoring forms are complete, that everything is properly documented to do with positioning, etc., so many things, and then the last thing on their mind is the slip of paper in their pocket.

I think it's worth remembering that this opening statement from the prosecution is only a sketchy outline of the case against the defendant. Then we'll hear a sketchy outline of the defence case. The actual evidence will be painstaking. In such a high care environment, everything is documented, so I expect they'll be moving slowly through documents, tracing steps, establishing timelines, etc., very carefully.

On normal wards it isn't uncommon for one overarching summary of care given to be made at some point in the shift. E.g. 'Patient slept well, no pain reported.' Areas such as ICU have extensive notes because the condition of patients can change so rapidly.

That's exactly what l thought tbh

I found this statement by the prosecution today was 'slipped in' and then not referred to again. Enough of a mention though to make a strong suggestion to the jury:

"Before she went to work for that shift, Lucy Letby exchanged text messages with one of her colleagues.
The prosecution say It seemed that she was not happy with working conditions and she referred to the difficulties of looking after the babies who just needed feeding support.
Child J was one of those.
The prosecution add that it appeared working in such nurseries was "not sufficiently stimulating for Lucy Letby"."

And just to say to anyone coming on just to criticise a thread on the trial - do you also go on to the thread about Ukraine and the bombing of innocent children, or the thread about the Thai nursery massacre and call those posters sick?

If you don't want to see it - please just hide it.

Exploring the concerns people had will be interesting.

I agree the hospital sounds awful. Substandard safeguarding I mean if you have such serious concerns you don’t just move someone from night to day shifts ???? You get them out immediately !