A Sikh in the choir?

[ThedaBara]

Curious about how comes there appears to be a Sikh man in the choir at the Queen's funeral. I assumed all the choir members had to be Church of England. How do you join the choir? Just interested

It's shocking that girls aren't allowed to be in the choir of Westminster Abbey.It's unfair discrimination, denying some of the most talented girls the fantastic training and opportunities the boys enjoy. I hope this policy changes soon.

Even when there are girls that doesn’t help once they get to adulthood - very few opportunities in the cathedrals for women (Joy and Carris being the exceptions here).

@FatLadySang agreed, I’m an alto lay clerk at a cathedral, I feel very fortunate to be able to work in this position, but sadly adult sopranos don’t have access to many jobs like this outside of London. Times are changing but where it comes to the top line, the fact that this has traditionally always been children vastly reduces the opportunity for adult women. I wish there were an easy answer to this!

As many have said, you definitely don’t need to be CofE to sing in a cathedral choir, I was brought up catholic. You have to be able to sing to the required standard and to willingly participate in each service (to an extent, no one would be forced to receive Communion).

Isn't it thought that prepubescent boys have a 'purer' voice than girls of the same age, which is why traditionally there are no girls in the choir? But then I don't know why there are no adult females either?

How do you even get that gig? Are all those lads elite private school boys or can anyone do it? Is it through the church?

This ^

I too thought- hmm, hang on a sec?, then doubted myself that I'd seen him😀

They were from a school in Westminster, one that trains young choristers for church and cathedral services.

@cinnamonbiscuit I envy you so much. I would love to be a lay Clark in a cathedral choir. Unfortunately I have no musical ability what so ever. Liverpool Metropolitan has women in the mend section and I think York has one. (My favourite place for evensong!

As a follower of the Sikh faith I felt immense pride to see a fellow Sikh in HM’s funeral proceedings.

The Sikh faith welcomes and respects all faiths and schools of thought, there’s nothing in Sikhi which would prohibit or hinder this man from partaking in the choir.

As I understand it the real reason for this is that girls typically start having changes to their voice earlier due to puberty often beginning at age 8 or 9. Of course they don't look very grown up but I know with my own daughter you could hear their voices beginning to become more adult at around that time.

Boys have been more likely to make it to 12 or 13 before that happens.

That gap is significant because it's during that time when a dedicated musical child can really make advances in terms of technique and understanding of the music. Three extra years of study and practice and also brain development makes a difference. Most of the boys have one or two years of really being top notch boy sopranos with that pure childhood voice that can sing the most complex and demanding repertoire. The younger ones will have things they can't sing, less vocal control, etc.

Though I've also been told that boys are starting puberty earlier now and it's been a problem for boys choirs.

In the choir?

How much diversity would you expect? About 80% of the UK is white, and although you certainly can have people from all faiths and ethnicity in a church choir, you do tend to see a good proportion with some kind of ties to the CofE and that musical tradition, just like with other culturally derived activities.

I was more interested in Nana Kofi Twumasi-Ankrah.

The first black man to hold the position of equerry.

See.

He's from Ghana.

Actually I think there's a huge gap between the purest forms of a religion's principles and the actual traditional way it's practiced. And that this is a problem for every religion. Christianity is built around the fundamentals of redemption: but see how unfashionable foregiveness is nowadays. How strongly many so-called Christian people don't believe that redemption should be considered as possible.

MNers are especially not Christian in practice, by not believing that things should be forgiven.

Yes I was shocked to discover that coercive marriage practices ever happen in Sikhism. Sikhism is on such a pedestal. I think this may be shocking discovery to some MNers, too...

I grew up in Westminster, and knew a couple of Abbey choristers growing up. One of them came from a very ordinary, working class family - (5 of them in a 2 bed flat). He had a beautiful voice and a very big bursary. Choristership

My dd couldn’t understand why women/girls weren’t in the choir. I know lots of church choirs have females, it’s odd that they don’t.
Personally, I would rather have female singers believing what they are singing, than agnostics or people who are not Christians. To me it’s like the vicar speaking and not believing a word he’s saying.

There was a woman in the choir at Windsor.

He would have been invited for this special occasion, a guest.

@Toddlerteaplease york minster is lovely, I’d love to sing there! I’m sort of stuck in the cathedral I’m at due to Dh’s work, but it’s also a lovely place to sing, I feel very fortunate.

We accept people of all faiths and none. In the 12 years I've been involved at my church we've had Muslim, Hindu, Jewish and Sikh choristers plus a whole shed load of agnostics and atheists ... the number of genuinely Christian can be counted on one hand! But they love liturgical music and appreciate, if not enjoy the rhythm and pattern of being involved in church. Many are young people who don't find being a teen easy, several have been on the autistic spectrum for instance yet church is inclusive and predictable ... only qualification needed is a good voice plus they get paid!

As others have said, the way most/all child choristers would be taken on in the first place is by audition and trials. The schools attached to cathedrals offer - in general - a very good education on British public school lines though, with a need to board for some pupils. The busy and demanding times of year follow the church services much more than the school terms, so Christmas Eve might mean young choristers away from home overnight, not with their family, on the 24th and at least some of the 25th, due to the midnight service. The practices and services are a huge commitment that it's not possible to pick and choose around, even if your child doesn't board.

@abovedecknotbelow

They are, my DD's were. Westminster abbey is behind the times. My dd sings alto now on the back row

The former President of the Methodist Church, Inderjit Bhogal, had a Sikh background. His parents sent him to Sunday school as a kid, for the reasons @Simonjt stated. He was actually a Minister at our church for a while and instituted the excellent Sikh custom of eating before (some) worship. Excellent for keeping the mind focussed!

This thread title sounds like a Booker Prize winner. Maybe MN should have an award for best thread title of the year?