Liz Truss to lift ban on new grammar schools

[noblegiraffe]

I cannot believe that we are here AGAIN after it went so poorly for Theresa May when she wanting to do this.

Liz Truss said in her leadership campaign that she wanted to lift the ban on new grammar schools. Since becoming PM, she has stuffed DfE positions with ardent supporters of new grammar schools (including the odious Jonathan Gullis as new schools minister).

The Telegraph is now reporting a planned amendment to the Schools Bill which would allow the creation of new grammar schools. Leading this is Sir Graham Brady, chair of the 1922 committee, who has been trying to bring back grammar schools for years.

Some notes on grammars: They are bad for social mobility. Despite many efforts to create a selection test that doesn't select against disadvantaged kids, this remains the case, and grammar school intakes are heavily skewed in favour of the better-off (obviously this is why some people like them).

The Tories closed more grammar schools than Labour, (Thatcher closed more than anyone else). They were not popular with parents who eventually realised that the vast majority of children don't get into them. Parents who might be in favour of grammars are not actually in favour of sending their child to secondary moderns, yet this is where most of them will go.

The German system (which is always referenced when it comes to grammar schools) was condemned by the UN for perpetuating social inequity.

Vocational education is a real issue in England and that's where any energy on schooling should be focused.

And obviously school funding and teacher recruitment and retention should be the main priorities in education for the new government.

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/09/17/liz-truss-could-lift-ban-new-grammar-schools-months/

I’d love it if there were such a passionate discussion about provision for children who can’t appropriately access mainstream education, for whatever reason.

You might find this interesting icm.cstuk.org.uk/assets/CST-Publications/CST_AmbitionInstitute_Whitepaper_AGoodLife.pdf

Grammar schools need to be scrapped. They do not promote social mobility. There are more kids at grammar schools who went to private preps than there are kids on free school meals. For example 61% of kids at Cranbrook School in Kent DIDNT go to a state primary school. Some will have been homeschooled but most will have gone to private preps. INFO HERE FROM 2022 There are only 3.5% of kids there who get free school meals where the average at non grammars in Kent is over 22%. These facts speak for themselves. How anyone can think it's acceptable and fair is beyond me.

It's kids with switched on parents who priorities education who benefit. 11 is too early to decide which kids should get a more academic education especially when it has clearly been shown that it's possible to train for the 11plus. All kids should go to a local comprehensive school which should be made to provide a good education for all students. Kids should go to their local school and school boundaries should be drawn up to minimize schools in wealthier areas not having kids from a wide range of socio economic groups.
If all abilities of kids were educated in the same school it would allow kids to change streams and would stop the ridiculous and UNFAIR tutoring for the 11 plus

Religious schools should also be scrapped.

There should be More SEN schools and more provision for SEN students in regular schools.

Btw my kids went to comps but could have gone to a grammar in the next county. They all did well academically so I've no personal gripe with my local school. I see social mobility as a massive issue in the UK.

Children who are doing well in the non selective can be transferred to a grammar school when there's space. Equally quite a few transfer the other way.

Quite a few? I think not. I was born in the early 1950s so for me Grammar's/Sec Mod's were the norm when I was 11. I can only speak for my own school, but I can only remember one person transferring into my grammar school before the sixth form, and one getting thrown out. At sixth form level, the person with the best results, namely 10 O levels, had come from a good Sec Mod. The worst of my Grammar school cohort left with NO O levels. Yes, anecdote is not data, but I wouldn't mind betting that results like this were pretty typical.

There is a much more fundamental problem, which is harder to address, how to get some parents to take an interest in education in order to help their children? Whatever the solution, a return to the 1930s model of Grammar Schools is not the answer.

If the comprehensive schools in your area prioritize those pupils who are struggling academically and the grammar schools prioritize the most able of an already able bunch then the vast majority of pupils across both schools who don't fall into an outlying ability category are being let down, and more grammar schools aren't going to do anything to help them.

Grammar schools also set so you can be top set English and bottom maths.
It's the top 25% so still a big variety in outcomes unless at a super selective.
A pp has completely misunderstood mu point. As I'm sure noblegiraffe as a maths teacher is aware, teachers have different skill sets. There are some maths teachers you want with top set and teaching further maths, who would put off a functional skills entry or level 2 class. Sometimes teachers who struggled at school are great at findings ways to access the curriculum but wouldn't be able to stretch the brightest. Some teachers have great behaviour management and nurture and teach in special needs schools, one I know spends all year on life skills and an achievement is making tea safely. The teacher who teaches a level history is unlikely to be the same who teaches life skills. In primary although qualified to teach all years some are very good at yr6 and others yr1, as it is not exactly the same skill set.

I'm not being mean here but kids who get all 9s do need a bit more stretch. Yes teachers with 5s who worked for those can point in the direction, having that support from teachers who were like you is a good thing. Celebrate achievement, not race to the bottom and say good enough.

My daughter goes to a grammar.

I couldn’t afford a tutor. I bought some past papers on eBay for £10 and we sat and went through them for 2 months for about 30 minutes each day.

Stop stereotyping all of us who don’t have tons of money as total write-offs and an excuse to ban the grammar system for everyone. If someone wants something badly enough they will go for it.

This is what the evidence shows. In kent vs Sussex the avg grade is the same but in the grammar area it is stretched with a larger sd, more high and low grades.
Therefore grammars benefit the top end and negatively affect the bottom end. But if your kid can get in with some help, you can see why they do it.
If there were more grammars would this worsen or get better?

I went to grammar, as did my husband. My daughter is at a comp with a grammar stream - I much prefer it and am relieved we are not in a grammar area.

Have yo agree with pps that pack of SWND provision is a far bigger issue. I'm considering grammar schools for my very bright, VERY ADHD DS (yr 6) simply because they're the only schools who actually seem to provide for both bright and SEN.

The comps that had any kind of SEND were focused on bringing forward kids who had fallen behind, not kids who were super able, as long as they're not being distracted by a shadow falling on their page or someone using a pencil three rows along or self-harming because "everybody hates me and I'm too stupid to be friends with".

The grammar schools, as someone said, predominantly deal with ASD (which he also has traits of), ADHD and some dyslexia because these are the SENs that tend to also be able to get into grammar school. I just want my sons social, behavioural and academic needs understood and accommodated. If I could get these things in our most local state school then believe me, I would.

I am so scared for my son's future. I am doing whatever I can to protect his Mh and ensure he achieves whatever is within his capability to achieve, because the current system is massively underfunded.

I feel so sorry for the kids whose parents do not have the ability, one way or another, to research and fight like I have had to to get even this far. It's not fair.

All that being said, I think we should ban private schools and grammar schools and follow a Scandinavian model of education.

Also, the only tuition he's had is me and his dad going over practice papers with him once a week for the last year and a one off session with a family friend to teach him some test techniques. If he doesn't get in then he's not as bright as we think he is!

I wouldn't worry.

Liz Truss promised a lot of things in her leadership campaign- basically whatever the Conservative party members wanted to hear.

Whether she has the capability, ability and even possibility to deliver any of these promises and s another question.

Given her history it is more likely i
that she will u turn on most of what she said.

So this is why Truss slates her old secondary school for letting children down, a narrative that ties in nicely with a policy to bring back grammars (and ignores the fact that the school and supported her to get into Oxford). Even if there were problems when she was a student, we probably shouldn't be making policy for today justified by politician's experience of school 30 years ago.

Whether she has the capability, ability and even possibility to deliver any of these promises and s another question.

Sir Graham Brady who wields a lot of power is going to table the amendment and the Tories certainly have a majority big enough to not have to worry too much about getting stuff through Commons. Lords might be trickier.

@noblegiraffe I'm looking forward to seeing where the money is coming when current schools can't afford their energy bills or to pay the extra price now needed for paper. And staffing will be fun. Assume new Grammars won't need qualifies staff like Academies.
Stupid idea.

They wouldn't necessarily be brand new schools, mumsneedwine. Sir Graham Brady talks about private schools which are struggling in the cost of living crisis turning into state grammars, instead of state comps as they would have to currently if they wanted to stay open.

I'm not sure if that also means that current state comps could start selecting, which would be a worry for parents in the area who were expecting their children to go there.

The new wave of grammars being former private schools would be particularly unfair. For the next several years following takeover the state would be paying for grammar school education for a cohort of pupils even more privileged than standard grammars. It certainly would not be opening up top class education for under privileged but bright children, as advocates of grammar schools claim they do.

We actually have an ex fee paying school in Trafford that is now state.

One closed down and became a prep.

Both of my DC went to single sex Grammars. DS's school setted for maths and PE (which I thought was a good idea).

BFF's daughter went to the local high school which was right for her. She was top of her nurtured top set class which did masses for her self esteem. She wouldn't have been in that situation if the Grammar kids were there. She would have been second tier.

Last time I looked (quite a while ago) Trafford did pretty well across the board, not just the Grammars. I think the key is to put effort into all of the schools.

Fantastic news!

I'd still call that tutoring.

30 hours of work towards the 11+ isn't just taking an exam.

I know parents who the same for sats. Workbooks at home everyday.
I call that extra tutoring too.

The same way my ds juniors had an extra maths class once a week for half a term for those expected to or who they thought could get a 6. That was tutoring.

So how will having more grammar schools help your child who won't get into one?

I don't think I've seen any posts of this thread from parents who live in grammar areas, but who's DCs didn't get into the grammar school so go to the the comp instead, and were supportive of having more grammars.
Plenty from posters who parents had a disadvantaged background and went to grammars so pulled themselves out of poverty - we now live in very different times.
Plenty from posters who's kids got into grammars - not really the right audience as their child getting a place means another child doesn't, and it's that other child that will suffer.
Quite a few from parents who didn't pay for tutors BUT still had the time and ability to support their child to go through past papers etc.

And then the gem of not letting DC's with household incomes of more than £60k apply to grammars. So where do they go then?

There needs be a complete overhaul of state education provision to ensure that every child no matter what their background, income or specific needs is able to reach their potential. Reintroducing grammars is absolutely not the way to do this.

but who's DCs didn't get into the grammar school so go to the the comp instead, and were supportive of having more grammars.

Please don't call them Comps when they are Secondary Moderns. Now I know that in counties like Oxfordshire with a lot of private schools, a number of bright children are creamed off - but there are still plenty of bright children left in the Comps. And also, not everyone with money has bright children - some of the Independent schools are known as being more suitable for the less academic child.

@fiftytontheresa

So how will having more grammar schools help your child who won't get into one?

If there are more grammar schools, there'll be more places available so the entrance exam level requirement will be lower. Lots of pupils who were "just below the line" will therefore get a place simply due to more supply of places.

Comps don't work ? This year alone we sent 11 to Oxbridge & 75% to Russell Group from year 13, many year 11s onto apprenticeship or trade schemes, and all had the opportunity to study together and be treated the same. No one felt written off at 11. Many many other comps do the same, or better.
My own went to another comp and are now studying medicine and vet medicine.
Comps work.