Please help me with bedtime routines before I go insane

[StressfulBedtimes]

dinner and bedtime in my house is not working and I really don’t know how to organise it with all the DC of such different ages
Could anyone please help me with a schedule or something that might work, I’ve tried a few and nothing has worked

So we have 4 DC; 13, 11, 6 & 4
The 6 year old has ADHD and gets up for the day anywhere between 4 & 5am (yes he’s medicated, no matter how much melatonin he has this is what time he gets up) so he is ready for dinner and bed early

The 6&4 year olds share a room (no other possible way to arrange the house) and the 4 year old is honestly horrendous at bedtimes, horrendous! Can take 3 hours of me having to sit in the room otherwise she will wreck the place or she’ll be up and down 1636383836 times, she’s horrific

So the small kids are ready to eat at around 5, this is far too early for me and the big kids and DH isn’t even gone from work at this time, so atm I’m feeding them at 5, DH is getting in at 6:30ish by which time I’m well into bedtime with the small kids, which can go on until 10pm, so DH will want to eat as soon as he comes in, the big kids would be happy to eat around 7 and I don’t get to eat until the bedtime hell is over at 10ish and the big kids are then going to bed so I don’t actually see them

It’s just chaos, the oven on every 10 mins, someone in the bath, someone screaming, me attempting to have one of the smalls in bed while I’m ‘settling’ the other with milk and stories but just people everywhere and screaming all over the house

I can’t cope anymore
How can we arrange meals etc that fit everyone??

I'm coming at this from another perspective. She's learned that your super busy and the best way to get your attention is to behave how she is currently.

I should say I have a close age gap with my two kids. The eldest has ASD and I do think a lot of the time my youngest acts up because he wants my attention when it's on the eldest. So I'm not bring all judgemental with you.

Does she get much time alone one to one with either of you?

@AmIOverReacting20 we haven’t levelled her the difficult one at all, if anything that’s the one with ADHD
I already follow that Instagram page and absolutely none of that would work with my DC they are far too high needs
And yes the older ones absolutely do need time away from them, they are much more than ‘annoying younger siblings’ they take up 100% of my time when they’re around, they fight and scream constantly (and I mean constantly, so.much.screaming) I can’t take my eyes off them for a second, they pester and mother the older kids to play with them and have gigantic tantrums if they won’t so I usually end up begging the older ones to play just to make the screaming stop. It’s never about the older ones, always the little ones, so yes they absolutely need a break. As do I

Sorry I will come back to the helpful comments aswell this one just annoyed me and I really didn’t come on here in tears begging for help to be judged.

Labelled*
Mither*
Must proof read

Shes honestly just very naughty in general, she’s learned everything she knows from the one with ADHD except without the excuse (or the meds unfortunately!)
Are you 100% sure about this? Just be wary of labelling it as bad behaviour...

nnoying younger siblings’ they take up 100% of my time when they’re around, they fight and scream constantly (and I mean constantly, so.much.screaming) I can’t take my eyes off them for a second, they pester and mother the older kids to play with them and have gigantic tantrums if they won’t so I usually end up begging the older ones to play just to make the screaming stop.
This sounds about normal for 4&6 year old siblings. The simple answer is, if they can't behave, they stay in your sight.
It does strike me that this is very unfair on your elder two. And by conceding to the tantrum, you're teaching her that it works. I think you should sit with the elder two and come up with a strategy. At a convenient time, (you set up the situation if need be) you all agree to let the tantrum run. How you will deal with it. Stick it out together.

So sorry, this sounds like an incredibly difficult situation and you deserve good support to help you with this. Having a neurodiverse child creates a set of challenges with raising the younger sibling who will imitate and learn from their older sibling. Most parents will not understand how complex this is, so it could be worth seeking help from a professional or consultant, or find a specfic support group who can advise you on how to support the younger sibling.

One thing that I learned with my children is they needed HEAPS of sleep. Yes some children need less, but mine needed 11 - 12 hours when they were small. My DC of 3 -4 years old needed to go to bed super early, around 6 or 6.30pm, if I missed the window DC would then be awake for hours, but if I got in early DC would drift off fairly quickly. Their behavior would deteriorate rapidly if they did not get enough sleep.

You say the 6yo has ADHD - has the 4yo been assessed?

By 4 she should be able to understand that bedtime means she stays quietly in her room. Have you tried an audio book, or playing some meditation-type music?
how do you interact with her when she comes out of her room? Just return her with no interaction, on repeat.

Ok I’m back to answer a few points -

Firstly thank you for the kind responses and hugs last night, I was very low and I needed that kindness

DS (6 year old) rejects DH from doing any of the ‘caring’ for him, so he’s fine to play with him or take him out etc, but hugs/bedtimes/preparing his food/baths he will literally only accept from me

I have no idea why they are so hungry when they get home, DS won’t eat his lunch at school and DD has to have hers at 11am for an 11:50 start at school so it would make sense if they were just satisfied with the lunch I provide at 3, but they’re not, more DD than DS but I spend a good chunk of time taking biscuits and yoghurts off her and physically removing her from the fridge - I don’t know why, ‘I’m hungry’ just seems to be something to say for the pair of them

DD hasn’t been assessed no
TBH I think the thing is that DS’s behaviour used to be so bad and so violent that I basically used to just give DD whatever she wanted and let her get away with everything without really realising, because I was dealing with DS and now he’s on medication (he’s only been on daytime meds for 3 months) and now he’s calming down it’s making her behaviour really stand out and making me see just how bad it’s become
Which is no fault of her own of course, but now she doesn’t listen to a word I say, thinks she can do what she wants when she wants and will just flat out say ‘no’ when I ask her to do something, then scream when she gets punished
The screaming is so intense in my house I genuinely want to rip my ears off

DD is alone with me every day from the school run so 9ish, until we have to leave to get her to school so 11:35/40ish
I try to do things with her in the mornings but I could get better at this and do more, I’m just so fucking exhausted

My older two were nothing like this, looking back they were (and still are) absolute angels, I loved being with them, we had a lovely routine, would do fun things together after school, I would set up activities and we did lots of sensory play on our tuff tray, loads of arts and crafts and Lego etc, the little two are just a whole different breed

@dramakween youre right it’s very hard to understand unless you’re in it, I would probably think I was exaggerating if I wasn’t me
I hadn’t even thought of seeking professional help, DS is at CAMHS every 8 weeks, I could maybe ask his lead there if there is anything she could point me towards?

Literally everything you've posted is about how bad her behaviour is, how her sticker chart is empty and how you all need time away from her but you don't think you've labelled her as the bad one?

I'm sorry you felt I was judging you but that wasn't my intention. The whole good one/bad one dynamic is something that I'm very aware of as I've been reading about it regarding my DS and DD (DS is a much more wilful character so I'm trying to be really careful not to pigeonhole him and compare him to his sister). The bad ones behaviour will stay bad until you take steps to change your attitude towards them. Maybe I have read your situation totally wrong but it doesn't come across like that from what you're posting.

Have you tried the biglittlefeelings techniques or just assumed they won't work? Give them a good go before dismissing them. Even if it doesn't all work for you then you might find bits and pieces that do like the 10 minute miracle etc.

Yes I have posted about her bad behaviour because I don’t need help with the good
I could post about how many hours a day I spend consoling DS as he has meltdown after meltdown or how often I have to physically restrain him so he can’t hurt himself or anyone else during a violent outburst, I could talk about how I spend most evenings tidying up broken things and food from up the walls where he throws his plate at me or I could even talk about the 13 year olds attitudes and the 11 year olds mood swings and messiness and how much they bicker aswell, but those aren’t the parts I’m asking for help with so I’m not mentioning the other children’s bad parts, that doesn’t mean they don’t have them or that I’m labelling the 4 year old
I need help with bedtimes, and the main problem at bedtime is the 4 year old. The rest of it would be bearable if I knew I got a break at 8pm or whatever predictable time each night, but I’m literally dealing with this shit from 4am to anywhere up to midnight every single day and I just want her to go to bed and sleep so I can recharge. The 6 year old has medication to sleep so his is predictable, it’s the 4 year old which is the problem.

I’m sorry if your intention wasn’t to judge it just happens a lot so I’m somewhat in the defensive

DD hasn’t been assessed no
don't rule it out.

I’m hungry’ just seems to be something to say for the pair of them
They could be bored. They could be thirsty. Or they could just be used to snacking. I broke the constant snacking cycle by offering snack food I knew they didn't like 😈if they accepted it, I knew they were generally hungry and gave something else with it. I also used a lot of "have a glass of water and go and do x. If you're still hungry in half an hour come back."

say ‘no’ when I ask her to do something, then scream when she gets punished
Do you ask her to do things (allows her to say no)? Or do you phrase it as "you need to do x" or "x needs to be put away" or even as an order, "do x and then we can do y."

What do you do when she screams? E.g. if you're alone with her in the morning. Can you be equally dramatic? "Oh, are you screaming again darling. Well, let me know when you're done." Turn and put some ear defenders on, pick up a book and do your best to ignore her.

*genuinely hungry

Is there any way that you can take a weekend or a night off to recharge? Tackling behavioural problems is hard and it needs to start with you which is even harder if you're running on empty. I don't know if it's possible with your DS's diagnosis but can you get your DH more involved in caring for him. Pushback is normal. The first time I left my DD she woke at 11pm and then screamed for me until 4am...

You need to eat earlier and definitely before bedtime. I'd echo others moving family dinner later / your dinner earlier so you all eat together then suppers for anyone up later.

I've adapted to eating at 5ish most nights now it's not that hard and will make everything so much easier if it's done in 1 go.

Ok this is what I’m going for tonight -
Screen time until dinner (if they choose, DD is playing dollies)
Moving dinner slightly back to 5:30 and all kids eating together (I can’t eat yet I just can’t)
Then after dinner get everybody off screens in the hope they’ll all start to miraculously like each other, maybe try to do something creative with them at that point?

Then I don’t know about bedtime yet, I’m thinking of doing away with it altogether and letting them drop wherever they are and save myself the headache but I probably won’t, I might bath them at the normal time and then stick them in my bed with the tv on while I Potter with the big kids/shower/eat and then maybe try to put them down around 9? I quite liked the suggestions of the split bedtime and the making it non traditional and just whatever we need to get through
I think I’ve been too hung up on doing a ‘proper’ bedtime and tbh doing things the way I used to with the older ones because life was so good then

@StressfulBedtimes - how did it go?

@Caspianberg so much better!! They still gaffes about and kept coming out of my bed to see what everyone else was doing and the bit after dinner before the little ones bath time was loud and chaotic, DS did not want to do any formal activity with us but then was clearly jealous of the time I was spending with DD so was who by and awkward, but on the whole much much better - everyone was asleep and I was in bed for 10:30 🙌🏼
Looks like a big shakeup was exactly what we needed
Thank you all so so so much for the help, I actually feel hopeful today for the first time in a long long time

Annnnnd tonight we’re back to a shit show
I’ve actually just had to walk out it was all getting so out of hand
Had a big row with DH and am now sat crying in a McDonalds car park

I just want to move out

Hugs OP.. any change of routine will take some getting used to. How much longer do you have of term where you are? The summer term in England is pretty long, and I think a lot of dc are pretty burned out and tetchy about now.
Hope you have some fries or a milkshake to drown your sorrows in! x

So sorry to hear this OP, we also have 4 DCs and know how challenging it can be, especially bedtime. My two dd twins (8) are still playing in their bedroom, my DD (12( was meant to go up at 9.30 and is still watching tv and my DS (14) is apparently starving. We do all eat together between 6 and 7pm (one of us cooks, the other tidies up) and both me and DH take the little ones up at 8pm and do bath and stories.the older children go up themselves. What I have noticed recently is that we’ve given so much attention to the little ones, essentially fire fighting, that we’ve neglected keeping an eye on the older ones, who we assumed were fine but actually one was really struggling quietly in her bedroom. It’s so hard isn’t it. Sending hugs x

Pa I have also felt completely overwhelmed recently and crying a lot, it all seems so much. Guess 4 kids was never going to be a walk in the park was it 😞