Choosing a secondary school

[UndertheCedartree]

I'm just trying to get my head around how this works. We have a really good Grammar near us and a Catholic school. These are the school's I would like DD to go to. There's also a Comprehensive that might be ok but the open evening isn't until September. Then there are another couple of schools that I really don't like.

I'm not sure if DD will pass the 11+ as she's had Long Covid and missed lots of school as well as not being able to do 11+ club at school. So obviously if she doesn't the Grammar isn't an option.

I understand if you don't get your choice you can appeal. But if that doesn't work you can go on the waiting list in case a place comes up. I'd rather home-ed DD than send her to the schools that won't suit her. But what is the chance of you getting a place if you go on the waiting list?

You might want to check the criteria for the schools, as round my way no-one was offered anything other than their catchment school. We tried out of catchment for my son, as my DD already goes there and he didnt get in. In fact it was so full that not even all the catchment kids got in and are being bussed to the second campus in the next village.

The chance of getting a waiting list place depends on where you are on the list.

Grammar - no point putting it down unless she passes the exam.
Catholic - are your catholic? where are you in the admission criteria? Would you have got a place in the last few years (the LA or school will publish info on this)

Have you visited the other schools? What is wrong with them?

It is all very well now saying you would rather Home Ed, but think about the practicalities. Are you a SAHP? How would you cover the curriculum, assuming you would want to send her back into the system. Unless the school would be positively harmful, a less good school is better than no school at all.

You can appeal for schools. You need to show why the detriment to your child is more than the detriment to the school in taking an extra pupil. You can't use Ofsted result or GCSE results, but can use extra curricular, pastoral care, subjects offered, though you have to show why your child needs them.

Use your full 3/4/6 choices. Make sure there is at least one 'banker' on the list you will get into. Better a poor school on your doorstep han a poor school across town.

Mostly, Open Evenings are September/October before the deadlines for application. I imagine the grammar school will be on the basis of 11+ scores. The Catholic schools are usually pretty strict on their criteria and want proof of faith and regular church attendance. You could go to the Open Evening at the comp and see what impression you get from it.

Generally, you apply for several choices, although I think the number can vary from area to area. If you don’t get the one(s) you want, you can go on their waiting lists and whether you get a place will depend on the movement of those above you on the list and whether anyone moves on to the list who has higher criteria.

You can appeal for a school that you want, but grounds for appeal are very specific and don’t include that you prefer that school over others. You have to show why your child warrants a place over other children. For example, if you child was a talented musician and the one you wanted was the only one offering tuition in her instrument, you could offer that in appeal.

What the experts will tell you too, is that when you are allocated a school, you accept it, even if it wasn’t a choice, or was your last choice, or is a school you would never send your child to. The reason for this is, that if you don’t accept a place at any school, the authorities have discharged their duty by their offer and have no obligation to find anywhere else. You can appeal for as many other schools as you choose though.

The thing I didn't grasp clearly enough was that distance to school is not as important as which primary school is the feeder. Our first choice school is same distance more or less as the second choice but each secondary school has a group of feeder schools. My child's primary was not a feeder school and as an only child he didn't have sibling link either. Both of those were criteria ahead of any distance.

We didn't get in.

Second choice is ok but not where I hoped or imagined he'd go.

Oh and we didn't appeal as I knew of at least one other appealing on reasonable grounds and I didn't think the uncertainty was good for my child. Apparently I have done the right thing as all the transition days have taken place now but appeal hearings not yet held.

The Catholic school's admission mentions 'priority area' - is this the same as catchment? We are in the 'priority area' for that school. We are also in the catchment for the Grammar but not the Comprehensive.

Official feeder schools are area dependent. Some Areas have them, others don't.
Similarly priority admissions areas (coloquially referred to as catchment areas) exist in some places but not in others.
Some areas give priority to siblings over catchment, others catchment over siblings.

You need to read and understand the admissions criteria for the schools you are applying to.
Then you need to put them in your true order of preference but as I said before, include at least one banker, usually your nearest comp.
And yes, as PP said, always accept the school offered and if you hate it then examine your options.

Do Faith criteria rate higher than Priority Area? Which category do you fit? Check this year's admission data for how places were allocated. Even within a Priority Area distance might be a deciding factor. You should visit other schools, what may look indifferent on paper might have a good vibe and suit your dc well.

You get more than one choice.
So, if you put down the three schools you mention, in the order 1)grammar 2) catholic 3) comp (4 nearest one you a potty much guaranteed a spot at because crap school nearby is better than crap school other side of town!).
By putting the catholic school second the only thing that makes you less likely to get a place is if you get into the grammar. People who put it first choice wont get a place above your second choice if you meet the criteria better. I hope that makes sense. Hopefully someo e else can explain more succinctly.

'Catchment' can mean one of two things in day-to-day speech:
Either 'the area from which this school usually draws its pupils'
Or 'a pre defined priority admission area where, if you live inside it, you get priority over similar pupils who live outside the area'.

Look at who got into each school the last couple of years. (What criteria, distance etc). This will give you a better indication of how likely you are to get in.

(FWIW... anyone who applied, and many that didn't, got the Catholic school around here. All the comps were over subscribed.)

We were asked different questions for the online form for our county for each school. So our second and third choice had same questions but first choice must have had different criteria as it asked different questions and this was about feeder schools and ours is not a feeder. Plenty of kids from our estate attend this school including my neighbour opposite. So I think some years it is bad luck basically or else perhaps the area had new housing and more kids or something.

So regarding the Catholic school we are Christians but not Catholics so that does put us lower on the list but higher than someone with no faith. I'll have a look about admission in recent years, thank you.

Yes, we've visited all the schools except the Comprehensive I mentioned. Our catchment school the headteacher was dreadful. He did an awful talk and clearly had no idea about public speaking or a professional presentation. He made a terrible joke about bullying which considering their recent inadequate Ofsted mentioned a bullying problem was very worrying. He didn't know any of the pupils that were on the stage with him and had clearly never spoken to them before. The pupils didn't seem to have practiced and spoke so quietly it was hard to hear. The hall had dreadful acoustics. Most teachers in the rooms didn't go out of their way to chat, some weren't very confident to answer questions, one didn't know the difference between setting and streaming. There were only 2 science labs in the whole school, a tiny library. The facilities were ok but very poor in comparison with the other schools. One of the students interupted us speaking to a teacher and made an inappropriate comment. The uniform isn't ideal either.

Home education isn't a problem. I've already done it with one DC/am still but he is at college too. He's done extremely well. I absolutely do not think the Catchment school would be better than home education. I am a SAHP right now, but have done it alongside work as do most of my friends within the home-ed community.

Thank you for the information about an appeal. There are lots of reasons I can think of but it would depend exactly what the criteria was for 'need'.

What is a 'banker'?

'Banker' in terms of admissions is a school you would pretty much definitely get in to. So this is usually your local comp school, though not always. Some areas also have black holes with no guaranteed school.

Definitely check the criteria for the Catholic school as you may need to prove you meet faith criteria.

Even if you are OK to home ed, still accept whatever school you are offered whilst appealing, going on wait lists etc. You can always turn it down in the July/August before secondary starts.

OP - we can't give you the answers to details of admissions criteria because they can be different in different areas.

Some LAs operate actual 'catchments' - but not many.

Most schools base their criteria on specific categories (SEN / Looked after children / siblings, for example) followed by distance.

Some schools such as Catholic and Grammar may have areas within which the priority criteria are different e.g there are grammars which operate a 'pass rate' admission for children within the area, and a superselective admission criteria for children beyond that area, which means that admission is based on the highest scores.

In both cases it is quite likely that the priority area is irrelevant if you do not meet the threshold for Catholic observance of Grammar Pass.

It is all down to the detail, of the admissions policy, explained in the 'tie breaker' or over-subscription criteria.

So:

1. Visit all schools that you are interested in and (just as importantly) your dd would have a chance of getting into based on criteria. Do not discount schools based on rumour etc, you can be surprised! A good / good enough comprehensive can do as well by their top st kids as a grammar school can. My kids went to S London comprehensives and have done very well indeed in academic success and progress to top courses / top Unis. And, shock horror, that was at a school where some kids were on the edge of gangs etc. But my kids had nothing to do with them at all.


2. Do your research thoroughly. An overall low GCSE pass rate can hide a stunning performance by the top set who are supported to work to their best ability, irrespective of the overall average of the school. Likewise an fantastic overall average can hide under achievement by students who need more support and do not meet potential. The Progress Score arguably tells you more about the standard of education on offer than the GCSE average.


3. The LA and / or the school will show the number of places awarded under each admissions category last year, and the last distance (if relevant) that places were offered to.


4. Put the schools down on your form in the exact order that you would prefer. It is OK to include a hoped for wild card at the top, but as your lower preferences you really should include at least one school that your dd would get a place in based on the admissions criteria. If you do not do this, you could well end up being allocated an even worse school further away.


5. Accept whatever place you are offered. This in no way disadvantages you getting a waiting list place. But ensures you at least have a place should you change your mind about HE a secondary age child.


6. You can at that point go on waiting lists for other schools that would suit you, as well as schools that were higher on your list. There is typically a good lot of movement a few weeks after the place acceptance date. Lists move throughout the summer, and even into the first couple of weeks of term.


7. You can only appeal places that you applied to and didn't get. The basis of successful appeal is pretty tight - lots of info and experience on the Secondary Education Board.


8. There is lots you can do to help your dd get the knack of VR and NVR tests in the 11+ . There are practice books available.


9. Hang out on the Secondary Schools board on MN as the application process gets going - lots of advice and support.

The Open Evenings here are all June/July rather than September. I think it's better as it gives you more time to come to a decision. I'd hate to have barely any time. Yes, the Grammar is based on 11+ so won't be an option if she doesn't pass.

Thank you for the information about the waiting list and appeal. So if you accept a place, can you still go on the waiting list? Also, how would that work if you don't actually want your DC to go there? Wouldn't there be an expectation that they attend?

You can accept a place on March 1st, and then withdraw on August 31st. It gives you 6 months for more thinking. You'd feel pretty upset if your circumstances changed in that 6 months and you could no longer Home Ed but you had no school.

Ok, thanks. Sorry to hear that.

Oh, really? Yes, that's not good.

So if you accept a school you hate, what are the options?

If you accept a school you hate you can:

• go on waiting lists for schools you prefer


• appeal for schools you prefer


• (go private)


• Home Ed


• go to the school you hate whilst waiting for other places

Accepting a place has no bearing on any appeals or your chances on any other waiting list.

All waiting lists are held in order of how the applicant meets the criteria.

Late applicants can apply after the first round of allocations has been made on National Offer Day, and might go to the top of the list, if move in right next to the school, for example, or are baptised catholics with an unbroken attendance at mass, or whatever. So you can go down as well as up waiting lists as the summer progresses.

Catholic faith is higher no matter the area than other faiths/no faith but the other faiths/no faith within the priority area are higher than non-priority area DC.

We have visited all schools we could with an open mind.

Thank you for the information.

Right ok, thank you. The schools seem to have a 'catchment' or 'priority' area which puts you higher up the admissions criteria.