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American musings on the Jubilee

104 replies

Ponderingwindow · 01/06/2022 14:50

I’ve been watching the threads on the Jubilee with a bit of mild interest. Mostly that some people are a annoyed at celebrating the monarchy and this royal family in particular. I do understand that perspective.

As an outsider, I don’t quite understand the fixation on the actual stated purpose of the celebration though. Perhaps it’s because I’m American and we turn everything into an excuse for a bit of patriotism. From the outside, it just seems like the Jubilee is really just a celebration of the UK and the whole Queen part is just the excuse for the party. Especially with Covid and Brexit and all the other badness, it seems like a bit of community building would be welcomed by everyone. Does it not work that way there? Do people maintain focus on the stated meaning and not the greater symbolism?

OP posts:
Blossomtoes · 02/06/2022 11:30

Baystard · 02/06/2022 07:19

Everyone is so cheerful

I'm enjoying the jubilee celebrations for this very reason, we are quite short on national festivities these days and this feels like as good an excuse as any.

This. And after the miserable last two years, it’s lovely to have a bit of light relief.

IHateWasps · 02/06/2022 11:37

What's not to like

The whole celebrating the continuation of the Monarchy as though it's a positive thing and spending a fortune on it when the cost of living is constantly rising and more and more people can't afford to heat their homes or feed their family.

Also, 'What's not to like?" has to be the most annoying phrase ever.

MindPrison · 02/06/2022 12:43

Plenty of threads enjoying it today.
I reckon the Royals could swing public opinion if we were all entitled to book a week at a palace in a timeshare fashion.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

RamblingEclectic · 02/06/2022 13:01

I'm American and British and don't recognize those overgeneralizations nor find them helpful. There are plenty of Americans who get more than annoyed and absolutely do not turn everything into US patriotism (see Thanksgiving as a day of mourning) and plenty of Brits who are using this and any Saint day and similar for a party and/or community building.

Also, I did the bike ride parades as a child in the States. Maybe it's because I was very obviously at the bottom, but it always felt like it was all just a display for the local people in power to act like they're doing and part of the community they largely ignore if not sneer at which yeah, can be based in imperialism and xenophobia, or at the least a sense of superiority & acting like the rest of us are fools. American pageants and displays do tend to be different than UK ones, but the apple doesn't fall that far from the tree.

So patriotism and love of your country is different from the US, where there does not seem to be any strong movement if any for a part to be independent.

The independence and separatists movements do get squashed down harshly in the US and don't have the same public acknowledgement as the UK versions as there is no legal way to go about it, but they are definitely there. Rarely is it a whole recognized state - Texas is probably the best known of those, with Cali and Alaska close behind, but the attempts have been taken even up to the Supreme Court to consider it have failed. As stated by them: "If there was any constitutional issue resolved by the Civil War, it is that there is no right to secede." so it tends to be groups without that kind of recognition and so easier for the government to deal with.

Part of America’s patriotism includes the American dream for immigrants and the idea that anyone can become an Americian, and a lot of the racists there want the Southern states to leave the USA. They are more obsessed with being “European” than American.

Sure, there is the League of the South and other Neo-Con groups, but we also have the New Afrika and Chicano separatist movements in the American South as well.

Most of the larger and most powerful White separatist groups are in the US north. Oregon was literally founded to be a white utopia and still has many issues with white supremacy movements with Portland there and Boston in the Northeast often tying for most racist US city. Lot of the white-European only groups centre around the Northwest, not the South.

While the White ones get more attention, many of the separatist and independence movement are by marginalized groups who feel the part of US patriotism about expansion and control is something they don't want to be part of. That and some fighting to get their own nations back like the Lakotah and the Hawaii movements are a significant part of pushing back against the anyone can become American as while that may be true on paper (but no less true than most other nations at this time so not really a unique selling point) most neither feel that or even want it that way.

Gettingthingsdone777 · 02/06/2022 13:16

RamblingEclectic · 02/06/2022 13:01

I'm American and British and don't recognize those overgeneralizations nor find them helpful. There are plenty of Americans who get more than annoyed and absolutely do not turn everything into US patriotism (see Thanksgiving as a day of mourning) and plenty of Brits who are using this and any Saint day and similar for a party and/or community building.

Also, I did the bike ride parades as a child in the States. Maybe it's because I was very obviously at the bottom, but it always felt like it was all just a display for the local people in power to act like they're doing and part of the community they largely ignore if not sneer at which yeah, can be based in imperialism and xenophobia, or at the least a sense of superiority & acting like the rest of us are fools. American pageants and displays do tend to be different than UK ones, but the apple doesn't fall that far from the tree.

So patriotism and love of your country is different from the US, where there does not seem to be any strong movement if any for a part to be independent.

The independence and separatists movements do get squashed down harshly in the US and don't have the same public acknowledgement as the UK versions as there is no legal way to go about it, but they are definitely there. Rarely is it a whole recognized state - Texas is probably the best known of those, with Cali and Alaska close behind, but the attempts have been taken even up to the Supreme Court to consider it have failed. As stated by them: "If there was any constitutional issue resolved by the Civil War, it is that there is no right to secede." so it tends to be groups without that kind of recognition and so easier for the government to deal with.

Part of America’s patriotism includes the American dream for immigrants and the idea that anyone can become an Americian, and a lot of the racists there want the Southern states to leave the USA. They are more obsessed with being “European” than American.

Sure, there is the League of the South and other Neo-Con groups, but we also have the New Afrika and Chicano separatist movements in the American South as well.

Most of the larger and most powerful White separatist groups are in the US north. Oregon was literally founded to be a white utopia and still has many issues with white supremacy movements with Portland there and Boston in the Northeast often tying for most racist US city. Lot of the white-European only groups centre around the Northwest, not the South.

While the White ones get more attention, many of the separatist and independence movement are by marginalized groups who feel the part of US patriotism about expansion and control is something they don't want to be part of. That and some fighting to get their own nations back like the Lakotah and the Hawaii movements are a significant part of pushing back against the anyone can become American as while that may be true on paper (but no less true than most other nations at this time so not really a unique selling point) most neither feel that or even want it that way.

Really interesting perspective, thanks for sharing!

MrsTerryPratchett · 02/06/2022 14:33

RampantIvy · 02/06/2022 09:53

Being openly patriotic in England is seen as either a) a rah-rah Tory pursuit b) very working class and not something educated people stoop to

Or (according to mumsnet) being a member of Britain First/a fascist/ being racist/being xenophobic.

A very quick Google gives me articles in The Guardian, Independent, Telegraph (so not seemingly partisan) about the issues with the English flag. And there are plenty of pictures of racists and neo-Nazis waving both flags (George and Union) around at the Cenotaph while Nazi saluting.

I'm actually very glad the likes of Ginger Spice and Paul Smith went a long way to get the Union Flag back from racists. I don't think the George Cross has been similarly resuscitated yet. Just pretending it isn't seen as a right-wing, hooligan flag won't do that.

American musings on the  Jubilee
Puffalicious · 02/06/2022 14:39

No bunting in sight here, it's super quiet- feels like an average Sunday as everyone is off work. But I am in Scotland...

Puffalicious · 02/06/2022 14:42

Great Post Ramblingeclectic

WalkerWalking · 02/06/2022 14:46

Nope, the Jubilee is very specifically about the Queen! And yes, it becomes a wider social/cultural thing, because we all eat scones and drink pimms (😏) but the focus of it is absolutely on the Queen.

Maybe you're imagining we see it as somehow comparable to 4th of July?

cottagegardenflower · 02/06/2022 15:20

After all the shit with Covid it's a great excuse for some serious partying and a bit of national pride.

Agree first rule of being British is to criticise and loathe your country, but a lot of people secretly love the pomp and ceremony 😂

Maytodecember · 02/06/2022 15:22

A lot of the dislike of the RF and all this fuss over 70 years on the throne is to do with the class system, IMO. The RF think they’re chosen by ( their Christian ) God to rule over the people of Britain. No, they’re not superior, or better, or chosen. They’re highly dysfunctional and out of touch with the real world. The “work” they do is totally organised and orchestrated for them, none have done a proper days work in their life ( tho more modern royals like Harry and William served properly in the armed Services, and William as an air ambulance pilot for a short time)
I’m more inclined towards the French way of life, tho wouldn’t go as far as using the guillotine 😁

TalkingCat · 02/06/2022 16:21

As an Australian I always thought it was strange Americans are so patriotic when they have very little to celebrate, imo, their country seems extremely backward, savage and barbaric. No healthcare, gun culture, no women's rights, save the fetus to blow it's brains out in a school shooting, dangerous far-right tyrannical dictators like Trump, really I see nothing to be proud of if I were American I would be ashamed, as it to me seems like a third world country full of violence, tyranny and death.

Then again, I'm not all that patriotic of Australia either, though we are indeed the lucky country and the safe country. We have very liberal abortion rights, euthanasia, can go to McDs and line up at the counter and not stand behind someone with a semi- automatic on their hip, can send our kids to school and not worried about them being mass shot. A minimum wage (no such thing as 'tipping' here, as no need thank goodness as my maths is bad), minimum 4 weeks paid annual holiday, 10 days paid public holidays per year (bank holidays in US and UK?) and 10 days paid sick leave per year plus maternity and paternity leave, superannuation for your retirement, mostly free healthcare from cradle to grave (no one here has to file bankruptcy due to healthcare bills, which is the number one reason for bankruptcy in America), police that rarely use their guns (good police training should negate much/any need to shoot someone), etc etc etc. So I thank god and every deity known to man that I live in a prosperous, save country that is so much better than America.

They say patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. Mindless and excessive patriotism is quite nauseating and stokes nationalism and racism in my experience. There is nothing wrong with some pride, but I think America way over does the sickening and mindless sentimentality, especially as given the state of their country there is nothing at all for them to be proud of. The UK is also so much better than America and worthy of patriotism however I do find all these street parties and bunting to be getting into the America level of patriotism and it makes me uncomfortable.

TalkingCat · 02/06/2022 16:24

This reply has been deleted

Message from MNHQ: This post has been withdrawn

@Pickabearanybear Australian here, too. I 100% agree with all of your post. About 20-odd years ago, I used to love flying the (Australian) flag. Especially on Australia Day. Now I'm too embarrassed to because I see it as something far rightists do, they've basically hijacked it. So they've ruined it for me. Too much of a Cronulla riots/PHON and yes white Australia signal. It's almost like if I flied the flag I'd be fearful of being seen as a far right racist extremist. That's how much it's been ruined for me.

And yes her support for Andrew has made me lose all respect for her. Granted I have always been for us becoming a Republic, but her support and protection if Andrew has made me question what if any morals the Queen has.

TalkingCat · 02/06/2022 16:32

Ferngreen · 02/06/2022 06:47

I also find American patriotism strange. Why do you salute the flag etc?

Because you live happily, comfortably and successfully with most of your needs met. And not in some dire dictatorship.

you live happily, comfortably and successfully with most of your needs met.

Considering the state of America and how it more reflects a developing country than a first world country, I doubt that.

And not in some dire dictatorship.

Trump's attempt at overthrowing democracy during his Presidency and January 6 beg to differ. Planned Parenthood also begs to differ.

SliceOfCakeCupOfTea · 02/06/2022 17:38

I can't bring myself to celebrate that the richest woman in the UK has been on the throne for 70 years. If she was, say, a teacher or a care worker for 70 years, had to survive on an average wage, with average access to health care and food, with no servants and stepped up to help raise her grandkids, worry about their futures and how/if they'll ever be able to afford a house or afford their own kids etc, then I'd celebrate.

Even if she suddenly lost all her riches, there is no way the UK would let her just live like we do, there would be national calls for us to all give her money. She'll never experience the UK that the vast majority of us have to live in...why should she be in charge when she lives in a different world?

Blossomtoes · 02/06/2022 17:46

I do find all these street parties and bunting to be getting into the America level of patriotism and it makes me uncomfortable

I don’t think they’ve got anything to do with patriotism. This is like Halloween has become, most people seem to be doing it for their kids. And, after a truly shit couple of years, people are in the mood to get together and party. The level of patriotism has definitely diminished in my lifetime.

Blossomtoes · 02/06/2022 17:48

@SliceOfCakeCupOfTea, she’s not in charge of anything. We might not be in the midst of such a shitshow if she was - at least she’s prepared to obey the law.

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 02/06/2022 17:53

I’m a Republican. I hate the Royals. I dislike the British flag as l associate it with flagshaggers and the extreme right. Im not sure it’s even a ‘United’ Kingdom anymore.

So nope, no patriotism here, or any interest in it at all. None of my friends are doing anything. We all think the same.

DownNative · 02/06/2022 18:33

TalkingCat · 02/06/2022 16:21

As an Australian I always thought it was strange Americans are so patriotic when they have very little to celebrate, imo, their country seems extremely backward, savage and barbaric. No healthcare, gun culture, no women's rights, save the fetus to blow it's brains out in a school shooting, dangerous far-right tyrannical dictators like Trump, really I see nothing to be proud of if I were American I would be ashamed, as it to me seems like a third world country full of violence, tyranny and death.

Then again, I'm not all that patriotic of Australia either, though we are indeed the lucky country and the safe country. We have very liberal abortion rights, euthanasia, can go to McDs and line up at the counter and not stand behind someone with a semi- automatic on their hip, can send our kids to school and not worried about them being mass shot. A minimum wage (no such thing as 'tipping' here, as no need thank goodness as my maths is bad), minimum 4 weeks paid annual holiday, 10 days paid public holidays per year (bank holidays in US and UK?) and 10 days paid sick leave per year plus maternity and paternity leave, superannuation for your retirement, mostly free healthcare from cradle to grave (no one here has to file bankruptcy due to healthcare bills, which is the number one reason for bankruptcy in America), police that rarely use their guns (good police training should negate much/any need to shoot someone), etc etc etc. So I thank god and every deity known to man that I live in a prosperous, save country that is so much better than America.

They say patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. Mindless and excessive patriotism is quite nauseating and stokes nationalism and racism in my experience. There is nothing wrong with some pride, but I think America way over does the sickening and mindless sentimentality, especially as given the state of their country there is nothing at all for them to be proud of. The UK is also so much better than America and worthy of patriotism however I do find all these street parties and bunting to be getting into the America level of patriotism and it makes me uncomfortable.

You have both misquoted AND misunderstood what Samuel Johnson said vis a vis "patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel".

The actual quote is "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel". In reality, the phrase is NOT a denunciation of patriotism:

"Patriotism having become one of our topicks, Johnson suddenly uttered, in a strong determined tone, an apophthegm, at which many will start: ‘Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.’ But let it be considered, that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak for self-interest."

The real target was those who abuse patriotism for their own selfish reasons. It did not and does not apply to people celebrating major events in the life of the nation such as the Platinum Jubilee.

Read more:

interestingliterature.com/2021/05/patriotism-is-the-last-refuge-of-the-scoundrel-meaning-origins/#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16541905343732&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Finterestingliterature.com%2F2021%2F05%2Fpatriotism-is-the-last-refuge-of-the-scoundrel-meaning-origins%2F

"So, ‘patriotism is the last refuge of a [not the] scoundrel’ was not, in fact, a denunciation of patriotism in general but rather a very specific reference to what Johnson considered the false use of the term ‘patriotism’ by William Pitt, 1st Earl of Chatham. Johnson actually valued patriotism as an idea, but he was – probably quite rightly – suspicious of those who use the word to describe themselves without following up such a label with any meaningful actions."

RampantIvy · 02/06/2022 19:27

And, after a truly shit couple of years, people are in the mood to get together and party. The level of patriotism has definitely diminished in my lifetime.

I agree.

I hate the Royals. I dislike the British flag as l associate it with flagshaggers and the extreme right. Im not sure it’s even a ‘United’ Kingdom anymore. So nope, no patriotism here, or any interest in it at all. None of my friends are doing anything. We all think the same.

Well no, we don't all think the same.

The union flag is the UK flag so it is what it is. I don't associate it with "flagshaggers" or the extreme right. I am British so the union flag is my flag.

Go and spread your negative misery elsewhere.

cigarettesNalcohol · 02/06/2022 19:48

Definitely just an occasion to celebrate the UK and all things British, including the queen. Don't have much of an opinion on the monarchy.

cakeorwine · 02/06/2022 19:51

I am a Republican. There are a relatively high proportion of people (especially younger people) who are either indifferent towards the Monarchy or don't want a Monarchy. Attitudes to the Queen are different. You would struggle to hear a Republican voice on our mainstream media though.

I do like the pageantry. I do think that the USA does seem very patriotic - having the pledge at school and hearing "USA, USA" at sporting events. I do feel uncomfortable with such vehement shouting of a country's name like that. I am more of an internationalist like that.

Flags are great - but I wouldn't hang one outside my house. I do know that there are some houses who do fly flags outside their house.

I am a patriot, I love my country (and I recognise its faults as well as the good we have done). I also have admiration of other countries and am supportive of us working together. Yet there is an association that people who are like me don't love their country and 'should leave'.

I think there is a lot of admiration for the Queen. I don't think Charles will have the same admiration - and I really feel for his children and grandchildren - trapped in a gilded cage, their life dictated to them.

MakkaPakkas · 02/06/2022 19:54

There's a cheerful atmosphere of drunken lawlessness, bunting and scones depending where you go. Everyone enjoying an extra couple of days off. Patriotism doesn't really come into it for most people. The queen, I kind of like as I get older maybe because I'm used to her being around.

longtimemarried · 02/06/2022 20:04

Well I have just returned from my first Jubilee party and enjoyed every minute of it. After 2 years of lockdown it was a welcome relief.

cubangal · 02/06/2022 20:18

An American I know sent me some photos of the 'impressive array' of planes for the fly past, I didn't have the heart to tell her they were big standard planes going into Heathrow 😆

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