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Ukraine Invasion: Part 23

1003 replies

MagicFox · 28/04/2022 17:24

Welcome all, thanks for the company

OP posts:
Thread gallery
31
ItsDisneyBitch · 30/04/2022 10:44

Thank you! Trying to keep her calm. She is very unstable at the moment self harming etc. Tempted to throw all devices out the bloody window!

Igotjelly · 30/04/2022 10:48

ItsDisneyBitch · 30/04/2022 10:44

Thank you! Trying to keep her calm. She is very unstable at the moment self harming etc. Tempted to throw all devices out the bloody window!

Oh bless her, the media have an awful lot to answer for.

MagicFox · 30/04/2022 10:50

Thanks @Igotjelly that calmed me down a bit! Twitter is a cesspit for this kind of thing so you have to be really careful. If your daughter is using Twitter I'd seriously consider seeing if you can convince her to limit her sources @ItsDisneyBitch

OP posts:
YorkshireLondonMiss · 30/04/2022 10:50

@ItsDisneyBitch it’s really hard - I definitely had this fear when I was 17 and that wasn’t even in this situation it was just after being forced to watch threads in my A-level history lesson so it’s understandable. Will using the discussion we had on here a couple of days ago help? I second the advice to stay well away from Twitter, alarmist newspapers and also any clips of Russian State TV. I tend to only go to Reuters, sometimes BBC but mainly here for a balanced news feed. This thread is an absolute godsend for me! But honestly I’ve started to try and think more logically, nuking the U.K. would be a big step and realistically thinking about it, what would Russia gain at this point from doing that? I don’t even know that countries they are friendly with would thank them for causing that sort of instability…not to say it’s an impossibility but right now I’m not convinced it’s likely. Put it this way, I’m still going to be enjoying this glorious weather today.

YorkshireLondonMiss · 30/04/2022 10:53

@ItsDisneyBitch saying that…I’ll probs be back here worrying on May 9th 😂🙄🤦🏽‍♀️

Igotjelly · 30/04/2022 10:54

YorkshireLondonMiss · 30/04/2022 10:53

@ItsDisneyBitch saying that…I’ll probs be back here worrying on May 9th 😂🙄🤦🏽‍♀️

I was actually thinking last night that I might make sure to have a screen free day on the 9th. I know it’s going to induce anxiety but also that it’s all likely to be bollocks so what’s the point in putting myself through that 🤷‍♀️

ScrollingLeaves · 30/04/2022 10:57

MMBaranova · 30/04/2022 07:30

I see that Catholic Pope Francis 'reached out to Putin three times asking to allow the ship with a Vatican flag to evacuate civilians trapped in Mariupol's Azovstal steel mill, but all three times his requests were rejected, according to the Italian newspaper Il Messaggero.'

How interesting MMBaranova. I don’t think there has been any report of that here. What a pity the evacuation plan was not accepted.

You went on to say the Pope/the Catholic Church is discounted by the Orthodox church. I can see that Patriarch Killer would dismiss it out of hand. I had thought though that in a more general way there was mutual respect between these churches and the Pope might at least be accepted as another Bishop.

I suppose the Russians simply see the Roman Catholic Church as the West/NATO.

Thank you for your post.

Autumnwater · 30/04/2022 10:58

Igotjelly · 30/04/2022 10:54

I was actually thinking last night that I might make sure to have a screen free day on the 9th. I know it’s going to induce anxiety but also that it’s all likely to be bollocks so what’s the point in putting myself through that 🤷‍♀️

I keep worrying about May 9th mainly because media and government keep banging on about it being an important date. I’ll be on a cruise at that point in the middle of the sea or maybe at a port in France who knows so hopefully I will be enjoying myself too much to remember it’s May 9th

Igotjelly · 30/04/2022 11:03

Autumnwater · 30/04/2022 10:58

I keep worrying about May 9th mainly because media and government keep banging on about it being an important date. I’ll be on a cruise at that point in the middle of the sea or maybe at a port in France who knows so hopefully I will be enjoying myself too much to remember it’s May 9th

See this is where the more sensationalist media outlets have a lot to answer for. For example looking at Ben Wallace’s comments yesterday, the DM spun it as ‘on May 9th Putin will declare a new world war’ - what he actually said is that Putin is likely to declare a new war against Nazis (meaning officially declaring that what’s going on in Ukraine is a war). To those who haven’t been reading multiple outlets you might be scared shitless but the reality is that it’s largely a technicality dressed up to look big for the Russian people who have no idea what’s actually already going on.

PaperTyger · 30/04/2022 11:06

Still following, was hopeful feeling less hopeful now

RedToothBrush · 30/04/2022 11:07

Phillips P OBrien AT PhillipsPObrien
Battle of the Donbas seems to be already have turned into a battle of attrition that holds out almost no possibility of a major Russian victory and more likely will peter out in the next week or so because of unsustainable losses.

Lets look at losses. Using claimed Ukrainian losses of Russian equipment as a gauge of combat intensity, it seems that the last 10 days have seen a major increase of fighting with much heavier losses being suffered (presumably by both sides).

I made this chart showing cjlaimed losses over 2 day periods between 14 April and just released information for today. Losses really leapt up after 18 April when the Battle was said to have started. The rise in tank loss rates was approx double and in APC losses more than 75%

If these Ukrainian claims are at all accurate (it should be noted that documented, photographed claims of Russian losses are about two thirds of those claimed, so they certainly should not be out by much) then the Russians have lost 217 tanks and 404 APCs since the battle started

Even if they are exaggerrated by 20 percent, Russian losses would be extreme, around 20 full strength BTGs worth? And according to the Pentagon, the Russians have 92 BTGs in Ukraine.

That means they could have lost 20% of their tanks and APCs in Ukraine since the battle started (thats if the BTGs were at that point close to full strength. If they were considerably weaker, it could be higher).

And what have the Russians gained for this large loss? Incrementally a few kilometres here and a few kilometres there. Here is the situation as mapped by AT War_Mapper a few hours ago and on 17 April.

There have been some small extension of the Russian lines heading south of Izyum and towards Lyman, but the pace is such that unless Ukrainian forces are actually close to collapse, the chance of a large scale encirclement is very small.

Pentagon intelligence also claims two things which are slowing down Russian advances. They are still suffering significant logistics problems (they need to stay close to their supply dumps) and they still dont have air superiority over the battlefield.

And now some worrying signs are creeping in for the Russians. 1st, there are indications that the Ukrainians are starting to deploy the loitering munition UAVs (Switchblade type) that were sent just a little while ago. This could be a major Russian problem

And UK MOD estimates are that problems are exhibited across the board for Russians, maybe most worryingly for them, morale problems are occuring.

A sign that Russian defeated troops into action from the Kyiv front might not have been the wisest choice.

Long story short. Unless the Ukrainians have been degraded to the point that their resistance is about to crack, and the Russians start moving swiftly to encircle their forces, its likely the Russian effort will peter out because of such high losses with little gains.

Finally, the plateauing of Russian losses followed by the decline in the last few days, could indicate a lessening in combat intensity as the failure of the Russians to breakthrough combined with the high losses starts to filter through.

There are a few people suggesting he is too optimistic. I'm not seeing this much from voices with military experience though. And those who are saying it, offer little in explanation of how Russian can provide a tipping point.

I think the notable thing for me was how Gerasimov has gone up the front

Eliot A Cohen AT eliotcohen
If it is true that General Gerasimov is assuming direct command of combat operations in Ukraine from a forward headquarters there are, as ever, two possibilities. 1/6

The first is that as the Russians launch the decisive maneuver(s) of the war, they want their very best field commander to complete these heroic tasks, orchestrating fire and maneuver, land air and sea as only a superb field commander can. And obviously, he’s the best! 2/6

The second is that maybe he is not the reincarnation of Suvorov, Zhukov, etc. but a guy who has been the top staff job for over a decade. And things are going badly. Maybe very badly. Or at least potentially very badly. 3/6

One cannot blame the Boss for having launched this incredibly stupid war that will leave Russia weakened, isolated, with a stronger and larger NATO on its doorstep, particularly if you lose it to those Ukrainian peasants! 4/6

So you send the Chief of the General Staff to the front with the message, “Fix this or don’t come home.” You now have a really good person to blame (nobody has ever heard of Dvornikov anyway). And at this point, you’re not worried about a successful general launching a coup. 5/6

…because this thing may be an epic disaster. So you need a really good scapegoat. As always truth may well lie somewhere in between, but I bet on #2. No reason to think Gerasimov is, in fact, likely to be a skilled theater commander plus issues AT WarintheFuture points out. 6/6

There is no evidence that Russia is capable of a breakthrough attack. There is evidence that things are going very badly...

I do not believe that this is wishful thinking.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 23
Ijsbear · 30/04/2022 11:11

ItsDisneyBitch · 30/04/2022 10:22

I know this has been gone over before on these threads. I have an ASD daughter who has been doom scrolling a lot.

can someone offer some advice on the news that is coming out where the propaganda machines are saying that the British Isles will be nuked? I have tried to talk her down but she is 17 and it’s tough!

My 14 yo son is autistic and the younger one is on the line (much too bright for my good, that one). In the hopes that maybe something here sounds useful for you, ill say how I'm handling it.

One way I've helped the older one cope with this an other situations is to not look away from the worst, and then to assess the various chances of various things happening.

So something like "mum, are we going to have nuclear war? will it hit here?". I'm replying calmly that it's very unlikely. Not impossible, but it's much more likely that depending on what happens that Putin will claim a victory for his own people no matter whether he keeps the occupied part of Ukraine or whether he doesn't. If he can claim a victory, and he is trained in how to claim victories really well even when he is losing, then there won't be nuclear weopons used.

It's possible other nasty chemicals will be used but work is taking place behind the scenes that we do not hear about to make sure that doesn't happen. If it does, then it will be at a much lower level than if the efforts weren't taking place.

Then I've asked him straight out "are you afraid we will be hit and you will die?" Being that blunt has helped by putting a name to amorphous but intense fear. It's actually helped my son to face it head on. Then I've said somethign along the lines of "facing death is very scary. I understand" and putting my arm around him and doing something with him, or more likely in his case allowing him his game time a bit early. The empathy seems to help.

He's brought it up a few times and we've discussed it like this and slowly his anxiety seems to be becoming more handle-able. It's possible he's worried at night, but I think talking it through and not minimizing it has helped a bit.

RedToothBrush · 30/04/2022 11:19

Igotjelly · 30/04/2022 11:03

See this is where the more sensationalist media outlets have a lot to answer for. For example looking at Ben Wallace’s comments yesterday, the DM spun it as ‘on May 9th Putin will declare a new world war’ - what he actually said is that Putin is likely to declare a new war against Nazis (meaning officially declaring that what’s going on in Ukraine is a war). To those who haven’t been reading multiple outlets you might be scared shitless but the reality is that it’s largely a technicality dressed up to look big for the Russian people who have no idea what’s actually already going on.

This is definitely what I've been thinking for a while. War declaration on 9th May possible but not certain. Nukes on 9th May are extremely unlikely.

I think we would have a lot more diplomatic activity and noise if we were headed to something sooner.

The US have eyes on nuclear facilities for unusual activity. At present Russia is still on an alert level which is moderate, not full level. This means they are not preparing for imminent launches in practical on the ground terms. In terms of sabre rattling for a first strike or a tactical strike, the noise and build up are definitely part of what you would do because the point is to create as much fear as possible. And to create the 'they made us do it', narrative.

We are now less than 10days out. Lavrov actively made a move to temper the situation yesterday.

Its nervey but every day we get closer to the 9th that we aren't into a cuban missile crisis stand off, I think its reassuring.

ScrollingLeaves · 30/04/2022 11:22

@ItsDisneyBitch · 30/04/2022 10:44

Thank you! Trying to keep her calm. She is very unstable at the moment self harming etc. Tempted to throw all devices out the bloody window!

Poor thing. I think some other posters here have explained very well how irresponsible media twists everything in order to be sensational just for the sake of getting attention. And they have also explained well how people like Boris’s way of life at the moment is a clue that she shouldn’t worry too much.

Would she agree to giving up her devices for a few days to break the compulsion to look? Join a class for something like Yoga to get out of the inside of her mind?

I hope you can get away for a long walk or some such distracting activity on Monday.

Of course this advice is something I should be following for myself. Perhaps others feel the same. Illogically, the minute I don’t look or care I feel I am letting some unknown force of will to win down, and being too complacent.

Ijsbear · 30/04/2022 11:59

Russian losses up to 1008 tanks now and 23,200 soldiers.

RTB when youget out of your field ... you said you'd found a reference to a Russian call that mentioned in fact 25,000+ plus dead?

Overall including wounded that must be over the 50,000 mark?? (guessing here).

MagicFox · 30/04/2022 12:01

Wow: conference proposes complete overhaul of EU. Thoughts? twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/1520336571945426945?s=21&t=7EYjU44ZyL6AKrqMjglh5A

OP posts:
EsmaCannonball · 30/04/2022 12:07

Some of the blue tick Russia watchers have suggested that Putin might use May 9th to announce full mobilisation of military-age men. A lot seem to think the crazy rhetoric is purely designed to scare and is directly correlated with how badly things are going in the war.

The Vatican ship was an actually useful suggestion for relieving Azovstal. Unfortunately Putin has invested so much in mythologising and then defeating the Azov Battalion that no merciful outcome would be allowed. I'd like the Pope to do something as symbolic and worthy of modern sainthood as actually leading a Vatican delegation into Azovstal and accompanying an evacuation out, daring Putin to do something. Short of a military solution, some kind of big gesture is needed for that place. Something a bit Maximilian Kolbe.

Ijsbear · 30/04/2022 12:11

I'd like the Pope to do something as symbolic and worthy of modern sainthood as actually leading a Vatican delegation into Azovstal and accompanying an evacuation out

If he did that the Catholic church might go some small way to earning some respect back after the terrible behaviour of the last decades and longer. Now that would really be putting his money where his mouth is and standing up for right.

If he did get killed though .... that would shake everything up and who knows how the cards would fall. Unpredictability at the moment is a very high risk.

EsmaCannonball · 30/04/2022 12:11

In terms of Ukraine, Putin will certainly see the Pope as a legacy of Polish influence on Ukrainian history. The kind of thing he wants to get rid of.

Ijsbear · 30/04/2022 12:16

From the BBC site

Russia has been forced to merge and redeploy depleted and disparate units in eastern Ukraine, the UK's Ministry of Defence says

Several people on here predicted that.

Fighting continues in the Donbas region in the east. But the Russian campaign to seize it is behind schedule and moving slowly, a senior US defence official says

EddyF · 30/04/2022 12:16

A really stupid question (but you don’t learn unless you ask. I don’t think I’m searching Google properly to get the answer).

Are parts in Ukraine that are not currently being occupied by Russia…are people living normally? by normally, I mean are people working/going to school etc? I know obviously it’s not an ordinary ‘normal’.

It is just when I look at the map of Russian occupation in Ukraine, I wonder about the other parts.

ItsDisneyBitch · 30/04/2022 12:30

@EddyF I have wondered about this too. It took until all this for me to realise just how huge Ukraine is. We exist in such bubbles.

mids2019 · 30/04/2022 12:42

Looking at the overly alarmist right wing tabloids so we think they are trying to support Boris before the local elections by causing a huge diversion to the cost of living crisis, partygate etc.?

The right wing press may be hoping for a flock to the flag response by the public and support for the current government. I don't think Boris has had his Falklands moment yet and maybe if Boris is shown to face down an unstable hysterical Russia calmly and purposefully that might be it?

RedToothBrush · 30/04/2022 13:13

Ijsbear · 30/04/2022 11:59

Russian losses up to 1008 tanks now and 23,200 soldiers.

RTB when youget out of your field ... you said you'd found a reference to a Russian call that mentioned in fact 25,000+ plus dead?

Overall including wounded that must be over the 50,000 mark?? (guessing here).

Thats based on a standard KIA to WIA ratio.

The reports that there were few medical evacuations nor even medical support, particularly in the early stages of the campaign means I'm not convinced that a standard ratio would be too accurate.

Its more likely that the death rate of those wounded was far higher than it should have been, which might suggest that the number of wounded is lower than we would expect.

We don't know for sure - this is pure speculation. The nearest comparison that was being used was a ratio closer to the American civil war, by some on twitter in terms of deaths to wounded. Thats all kinds of wow in terms of how appalling it is, in a modern setting.

RedToothBrush · 30/04/2022 13:40

EddyF · 30/04/2022 12:16

A really stupid question (but you don’t learn unless you ask. I don’t think I’m searching Google properly to get the answer).

Are parts in Ukraine that are not currently being occupied by Russia…are people living normally? by normally, I mean are people working/going to school etc? I know obviously it’s not an ordinary ‘normal’.

It is just when I look at the map of Russian occupation in Ukraine, I wonder about the other parts.

Yes and no.

It depends on where they are and what their jobs are.

My understanding is most schools are online at the moment, because its feared too risky for children to gather in large numbers. Im guessing but i dont know, there probably aren't things like football matches for kids as men who would normally do these things are busy with other things either fighting or volunteering or doing logistical things.

For other things people are still working. But this of course is being interrupted by air raids.

There are large numbers of internally displaced people living with friends and family or friends of friends or distant relatives often in already cramp conditions.

Prices have skyrocketed for ordinary everyday things including food. Even in the west of the country close to the Polish border.

Whilst you can do things like go to restaurants and go drinking (if you can afford to) many don't necessarily want to even if they are available.

Then there's all the displaced and tramatised people who need care and support...

Even those who haven't been in conflict zones have friends and family who were and they are struggling with their own trauma and guilt from that.

It does not sound fun...

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