Page 2 | Working while on A/L payment...

Fordian · 2022-03-28T15:59:54+00:00

Help me, here. Am I being unreasonable? I get paid £20 an hour (HCP). This year we ^have^ to take our AL or we lose it. I ^assume^ it'd be paid out? Like all, we're in deep strife sickness-wise so there's loads of OT on offer, but if it 'goes live' within 24-48 hours of the shift, or it's difficult to fill, it goes 'golden' which attracts a further £15ph to incentive us. We work shifts so there are often people on their days off willing to pick up such overtime. I'm on A/L and a golden shift has come up. I've offered to do it ^if^ they give me my day's A/L back, even 'disguising' it as TOIL if need be. They've refused saying the golden-ness of it is the compensation. But, to my mind I'll be effectively earning £15ph for it, as I'm, being as I'm on A/L, already being paid £20ph for sitting on my arse. If I offered on a non-work day, I get that they wouldn't give me an alternative day off as it is overtime; but this is A/L and I think I should get it back as a day's A/L plus £35 an hour. What do you think?

JustALittleHelpPlease · 28/03/2022 19:42

No, when you take AL you are, in effect, paid for not working that day @£20 ph (because your monthly pay is not reduced whilst you are not in work as it would be for unpaid leave). You then take the golden shift and are paid £35ph on top of the £20 you are already being paid. Therefore you get £55ph. So no, you do not get your AL back.

zoeFromCity · 28/03/2022 19:43

Asking that AL day back is totally reasonable, as otherwise you would be either not working and paid AL pay or work and get AL pay +15ph, which isn't really an incentive.

If they don't want to agree on it, you can't help with the golden shift.

titchy · 28/03/2022 19:44

You either get paid OT+golden rate, OR rescind the leave and work normally. You can't do both.

You're being paid £20 an hour for your days leave. If you choose to spend your days leave working then you'll get a further £20 + £15. I can't see how you can justify still being entitled to another day off in lieu.

Or have I misunderstood?

CavernousScream · 28/03/2022 19:50

I don’t understand why you would think this tbh. If you cancel your leave, you have to work your normal shift. If you want to be available to get £35 an hour you have to be on leave. You therefore get £55 an hour, the £20 for your paid annual leave and then £35 an hour for the extra shift you’re only able to work because you’re on leave.

zoeFromCity · 28/03/2022 19:50

@titchy

You either get paid OT+golden rate, OR rescind the leave and work normally. You can't do both.

You're being paid £20 an hour for your days leave. If you choose to spend your days leave working then you'll get a further £20 + £15. I can't see how you can justify still being entitled to another day off in lieu.

Or have I misunderstood?

How I understood the OP, they don't want to pay her the day both as AL and as normal work + increased rate (which would be ok), they are offering only one pay of 20 plus the bonus.

Maybe, OP, could you clarify?

titchy · 28/03/2022 20:00

How I understood the OP, they don't want to pay her the day both as AL and as normal work + increased rate (which would be ok), they are offering only one pay of 20 plus the bonus.

But OP's last paragraph suggests she wants to earn the £20+£15, and keep the day as AL (in order to be available to take the shift - if she wasn't on leave she should be in work) AND still have a further days AL.

Original poster

Fordian · 28/03/2022 20:07

Well, I've said no 😂 but not left them in the lurch as someone else can offer them what they want (13 hour shift) whereas I'll only offer 9-5.

But my Band 7 has clarified that I would still be classified as on A/L (thus I assume getting paid £20ph) plus the £35. She had to go to HR to clarify.

Pity she didn't understand that 12 hours ago. Her message says 'The additional £15 is to compensate you' 🤔

No matter. Thanks for the input.

OP posts:

KELLOGSspeck · 28/03/2022 20:14

@Daisy95

In my trust we can work overtime whilst off on annual? In fact most of us do it unless were actually away as we're so short staffed management literally beg us. So surely you'd get your weeks pay and then overtime on top?

Same. Its always been like that for the last 10 years for me.

GiraffesInScarfs · 28/03/2022 20:30

@Towelseverywhere

Yes if you give up annual leave to work then of course you should get the annual leave day back. I can’t understand why people are saying not

Exactly. Either they pay you the £20ph annual leave and you don't work.

Or you work and they pay you the £20ph annual leave (that you have already earned) and the additional £35ph for the extra shift as well.

Or, they can cancel you annual leave from the system and let you carry if forward to take another day and take it later so you can work this shift for the £35ph.

Their idea that you lose the day of annual leave and work anyway (for free) and just receive the £15ph shift bonus for doing so is bonkers.

GiraffesInScarfs · 28/03/2022 20:32

@Fordian

Well, I've said no 😂 but not left them in the lurch as someone else can offer them what they want (13 hour shift) whereas I'll only offer 9-5.

But my Band 7 has clarified that I would still be classified as on A/L (thus I assume getting paid £20ph) plus the £35. She had to go to HR to clarify.

Pity she didn't understand that 12 hours ago. Her message says 'The additional £15 is to compensate you' 🤔

No matter. Thanks for the input.

Glad they have realised this though for future reference! How ridiculous that they even made an issue of this.

I hope you enjoy your AL, OP.

HunterHearstHelmsley · 28/03/2022 20:34

@Towelseverywhere

Yes if you give up annual leave to work then of course you should get the annual leave day back. I can’t understand why people are saying not

OP can only do the overtime as she is already on leave. If the leave is cancelled then she won't be able to take the shift.

If you're choosing to do overtime on your day off, you don't get a lieu day as well as an enhanced rate.

I'm actually working Wednesday afternoon even though I'm on leave. I'll get paid for my leave and for the overtime. I don't also get the time back.

Towelseverywhere · 28/03/2022 21:12

I think the enhanced pay rate is the sticky issue here. Aside from that, if someone effectively cancels annual leave in order to work, they then get that annual leave day back. That’s a given, annual leave is regulated from the working time regs which is health and safety legislation. If someone worked on each one of their booked 28 days stat minimum hols, by cancelling those hols, they would have no holidays at all and the employer wouldn’t be seen favourably at all at tribunal if they didn’t allow it back. I appreciate nhs is stretched and people may be losing hols here and there, also there could be an issue re the end of year. And of course the enhanced pay rate issue. But it’s clear that if you cancel your annual leave and work it then that leave day goes back into the annual leave pit.

Towelseverywhere · 28/03/2022 21:13

“Pot” not pit

GiraffesInScarfs · 28/03/2022 21:25

OP can only do the overtime as she is already on leave. If the leave is cancelled then she won't be able to take the shift.

If they cancel the leave, then she works for £20ph plus the £15ph, as this is not a shift she was booked to work hence the uplift.

If they don't cancel the leave she gets paid her leave (that is already earned as part of pay for work done throughout the year) plus being paid in full for the extra work i.e. £20ph plus the uplift.

Expecting her to work for £5 less than her hourly rate while on AL would be insane. Nobody would do that. Also potentially illegal as then employees would not have been paid for the minimum number of annual leave days required by law. Fortunately her HR have no clarified this.

If you're choosing to do overtime on your day off, you don't get a lieu day as well as an enhanced rate.

As above, it's not "in lieu". Either she's on AL and anything she does that day is paid at the full rate payable on top for that work (in this case £35ph) or they let her work for the £35ph and take the leave later instead, or she doesn't work.

I'm actually working Wednesday afternoon even though I'm on leave. I'll get paid for my leave and for the overtime. I don't also get the time back.

If you are paid the full rate for the overtime then that's fine. What an employer can't do is use your annual leave allowance to say that - even though you are working overtime to help them out - your basic pay will be your annual leave payment and you'll only be paid the extra overtime uplift for that work.

Some companies offer no uplift for overtime. By your logic any employee on AL accepting overtime shifts in AL periods to help their employer should be paid nothing for that work at all. 🙈🤣

HunterHearstHelmsley · 28/03/2022 21:46

@GiraffesInScarfs