Should I ask PayPal for a refund?

[gillybean2]

Don’t want to give too many specific details on the item/seller so please don’t ask. Sorry this is quite long but I was hoping for some perspective here so asking wwyd?

I ordered something bespoke from Etsy, costing around £200. I’ve ordered before from this supplier (a few years ago when it was a small hobby business) and was very happy. They have now made this their permanent business as I saw when I wanted a replacement for the original and searched them out.

I will add here that £200 is a significant amount to me and this was intended to be a Xmas present for my ND ds to replace a previous item he has outgrown but adores.

There is a long delay between ordering and delivery as it is hand made to order and bespoke plus there is tracked delivery on top. So I wasn’t expecting to receive anything for at least 3-4 months. I was ok with this and fully aware of likely delivery delays due to time to make and then additional weeks to allow for delivery from Russia.

Order was placed before the invasion of Ukrainian. Etsy have now emailed to say that there will likely be delays with delivery and to contact PayPal if I want a refund.

I tried to reply to an email from the supplier but it bounced. I don’t appear to be able to contact them through Etsy as they are ‘taking a break’. However there is quite a long detailed updated message which makes it clear that they are aware of what’s going on in Ukraine and that they don’t agree with it.

It states that they can’t take new orders now but intend to fulfil all existing orders and that they have already bought stock in order to do this.
They are asking people not to cancel their orders and say that finished items are currently still being sent out, they are rushing to complete as much as possibly, and that they are looking at alternative delivery methods should the current delivery options be curtailed.
It also says their costs have now increased significantly and that this is their only income to support their family.

I am very torn here.
On the one hand:
It was ordered before the invasion, but only by around a week.

I am in no hurry to receive the order.
I have paid for it already.
The supplier is a very small independent business and have likely already started my order or made purchases in order to fulfil it.
They have made it clear to my mind that they don’t support the war.

On the other hand it feels very wrong to order anything from Russia right now regardless.
I assume my order will have sales tax etc on it which goes to the government.
I’m not sure what import rules are with sanctions but wonder if the order may never turn up/be impounded even if they manage to send it.
It is a frivolous, unnecessary purchase which seems quite wrong at the moment.
I would hold off ordering it now if I hadn’t already.
Ds is not aware I have ordered this replacement for him.

Before I got the email from Etsy I had tried to contact the supplier to see if they had already started my order and tried to find out what my options were to cancel by my email bounced.

However since reading the updated info on their shop I feel maybe I shouldn’t cancel and even if I did I am unlikely to get a refund if they’ve already started to make it. I was aware when I ordered that they don’t give refunds because it is bespoke and hand made to order. So if they have already started to make it, to my mind I’m unlikely to get a refund even if I request it from PayPal and I wouldn’t get the item either.

The info the supplier has updated makes it clear they know what is going on in Ukraine, they refer to the war, that they don’t support it and call for peace. There is a lot more said but I don’t want to give specifics.

They are asking customers not to cancel which I take to mean some customers already have.

So my wwyd is should I cancel to show support for Ukraine and opposition to Putin and request a PayPal refund (which I am half expecting not to receive anyway)?
Or should I just leave it, support the small shop who has made it clear they don’t support the war and take my chances on my order ever turning up?

Sorry that was massively long but I didn’t want to be accused of drip feeding.

Tough one. Those poor people. Businesses have closed, they won’t be getting wages -how are they going to survive? It must be so hard for them having to deal with the fallout from Putin’s madness when they themselves are against the war.

I honestly don’t know what I’d do. It seems wrong to punish ordinary people for what he is doing, at the same time you don’t want money going to Russia but If PayPal are unlikely to refund it seems pointless to cancel and get nothing for your money.

For £200 I'd be cancelling. I'd open a dispute on PayPal & mark it as item not received. Then if PayPal don't refund you haven't cancelled your order. If you get a refund then If/when they start trading again you could reorder.

Are you likely to even receive the product if they are in Russia and there are sanctions in place?

Practically speaking, I'd say it's going to be very difficult to physically GET an order from Russia now. They are behind a "wall" now in so many ways that a few weeks from now will it even be possible for a Russian business to ship an order to a client in the UK?

Will Etsy even release the money to them?

If Etsy pulls out of Russia as so many businesses have, they won't get their money on orders already placed but not yet delivered.

In fact, Paypal may already have put the kibosh on that -

www.reuters.com/business/paypal-shuts-down-its-services-russia-citing-ukraine-aggression-2022-03-05/

I'd probably cancel and try to get that money back before it disappears into a black hole. I'm sorry for the seller, but the technicalities are out of her hands.

Thanks for the replies.
The seller’s message say they are still able to send orders by post and they go by train out of Russia. They intend to fulfil all existing orders.
I have no idea if sanctions mean all post is/will be automatically stopped or if it will be seized by customs and not delivered.

The payment has already left my PayPal account so I assume the seller would have received it long after.
If they haven’t received payment presumably they wouldn’t start processing my order. If they haven’t started I would definitely cancel. The difficulty is I can’t contact them to find out.

I think it’s too early to say it’s not been received. It’s clear when I ordered that it’ll be 3-4 months; 6-8 weeks to make and the at least 5 weeks to allow for postal. They send it tracked so I guess they could argue it’s not been dispatched yet.

Presumably if they dispatch it and it doesn’t arrive I can then request a refund for non delivery and they may be able to claim on the postal insurance? Or maybe insurance cover goes to pot in a war.
I guess I need to check how long after ordering I can raise a PayPal dispute.

You need to be careful you don't leave it too late. You only have something like 90 days to.file a claim.

Does 3 - 4 months sound reasonable for the time to take to make? I think if it was me I'd contact PayPal & ask their advice. They may have different rules due to the war. Honestly tho with the sheer number of companies & organisations placing sanctions on Russia I think the chances of it arriving would be slim at best

Yes i believe the make time is reasonable. The time to make is 6-8 weeks. They have to order specific materials, partly make it then they send it to a friend for an addition process and then finish off making it when it comes back to them.

They are a very small business in a niche market and have many orders pending. Each item is bespoke and made from scratch to specific requirements. They have plenty of 5 star reviews and make it clear what the make and delivery times are.

The delivery is subject to Russian post which they make clear is problematic and adds significantly to the overall delivery time.

I actually paid significantly extra for it to be express delivered by a specific date last time.
I thought I’d ordered with plenty of time for postage delays this time so just paid the standard delivery. I obviously wasn’t expecting Putin to invade Ukraine.

I checked on PayPal it says 180 days to open a dispute.
I also found a different email address I used last time when I paid the extra postage so will try contacting them with that.

There's two red flags here - (1) they're not replying to messages and (2) it's being sent from Russia. If they don't reply to your message I'd get a refund purely based on that.

It’s not that they’re not replying to messages, I can’t actually message them to get a reply.

I have a message from them explaining the situation and asking not to cancel etc as detailed previously. I can’t reply to this message or send a new message on Etsy. I assume Etsy have blocked this option along with suspending all Russian sellers.

I have tried to email them directly but it bounced. I guess I may have to write a briefer message avoiding key words and see if that gets through the censors.

Give them the agreed length of time to fulfil the order. If they don't, then contact PayPal.

Sadly there will be many victims of this war, including people in Russia. We should do what we can to support all those affected, and not judge individuals based on the actions of their leaders.

Any Etsy sellers able to confirm if they post it with tracking do they have insurance for non delivery? I think I saw somewhere on Etsy or maybe PayPal that sellers can include/pay insurance for this situation but I’ve read so much info the last couple of days I may be mistaken.

I have emailed the seller using the different email I had and it hadn’t bounced back yet.

I think I’m going to wait for the expected delivery date which is well within the 180 days and then contact PayPal. I’ve already paid and received an invoice (before the invasion) so the sales tax etc is already charged.

I can’t find any info on whether all goods from Russia are banned will be seized or if it’s just air and shipping that’s banned.