You know your boys but do you know your boy's friends?

[ldontWanna]

I always see here posts from parents talking about their boys,how lovely they are,decent,respectful of girls and in general etc. I'm sure they are and that's great. The more boys raised like that, the better the world will be for them and women.

But do you know your boys' friends? Really know them? Know what they get up to,how they talk , how they feel about girls,how they behave around them?

I was sexually assaulted when I was 14. The main perpetrators weren't a surprise really, golden boys,confident,handsome, had the form tutor eating out of their hands ,girls falling at their feet etc. They were the school's superstars from really well to do and influential families.

What was a surprise were the other boys that helped or just watched. Boys I knew since I was 7. Nice boys. Quiet boys. Academic boys. Decent, I thought they were good friends boys.One if them ,his dad worked with my dad for years. Another I spent hours prepping with for maths competitions and bonded over that. And still they did nothing... 4 just stood and watched . 4 and one of the golden boys held me down . Stood on my knees,grabbed my arms,held my head. They could've at least left, they could've not participated. 8 boys against 2 but I was the only one fighting. I was the only one who tried to tell.I was the one who had to negotiate her "leave me alone from now on".

So do you know your boys' friends?
Do you make sure they know that being nice and kind and respectful is not enough? Are they confident to say no? Are they brave and confident enough to stop it,to not follow the crowd? Are they strong and brave and confident enough to go against a friend/a leader? Are they confident enough to get someone? Are they confident enough to at least just leave and have no part in it?

Are they? Are their friends?

I know it's a massive and seemingly insurmountable task and a horrible thing to consider, but it needs talking about.

I'm so sorry that happened to you OP.

I bet they wanted to help you; I really want to believe that.

@HandWash

I'm so sorry that happened to you OP.

I bet they wanted to help you; I really want to believe that.

Even if I believe that(and I kinda want to just like you) it means they lacked the confidence and skills/tools to actually do something about it. Some actively helped, the others just sat and watched . They didn't leave,they didn't turn their heads. There was another girl there as well and she tried to intervene but her bf told her to shut up or they might turn on her. So she sat and watched too. God knows what went through her head and how she felt. She broke up with him that day and I never saw her again.

I'm so sorry this happened to you.

Peer pressure and a lack of courage to be a leader than a follower is way more problematic than people realise. I am trying to instill good morals and a strong sense of self in my son.

I hear you op many parents think their dc are good boys but probably don't know the half of it.
I have known ds2's friends since they were in primary, or most of them at least. Ds tells me that most of his friends make sexist and homophobic jokes which they would not do in certain company, ie in front of girls or their mums. He used to call it out, not least because Ds1 is gay but grew tired of being the "fun police".
He is now looking forward to Uni and widening his social circle and meeting more like minded people.

I think this is a very important point - being a bystander is not blameless.

I was brought up to be a bit odd - but I am pleased because I could stand up to my friends and was immune to peer pressure. I am trying very hard to instil this in my own children - to do what they think is right and not to go alongw ith the crowds.

Too many parents want their kids to fit in but sometimes they need to stand out.

I'm so sorry for what was done to you @ldontWanna

My youngest is 8. His friend is 7. That's how young I'm talking. I'm a single parent household. Some of the things he has said in my house are;

"Must be great only living with your mum. You must never need to do anything you're told." (Because he doesnt listen to his mum. Only his dad can discipline him. If his mum tries too, his dad tells her to leave him alone).

"Yeah, but that was just my mum that said that so who cares." (When his mum had told me not to give him any ice cream as he had been behaving so badly.)

"I am not using a pink cup. That's a girls colour. I'm not using a girl's cup. Take that back." (Shouted at me when I put out 2 pink cups and a purple one. Just plastic IKEA cups and they get them in whatever order they are stacked).

And many many more along the same theme of 'woman shut up, I dont need to listen to you.'

I've got to know his parents a lot recently and it definitely comes from the way they are with each other and the things they say infront of him. I can imagine him being the boy who does things like that as he grows up. I am carefully trying to end that friendship and explaining about respect and misogyny in an age appropriate way to my son.

I'm so sorry that happened to you.

My ds was bullied at school. 2 main perpetrators and the usual people who never stood up for him.

One day the bulky jumped him from behind in the school corridor and ds shoved him extremely hard yelling to to tick off and never lay a finger on him again.

Witnessed by a teacher who confirmed ds did no wrong.

The kid ended up with a broken arm.

Suddenly all the bystanders wanted to be ds best friend. He told them all to do one as they didn't want to be his friend when they though he was the victim - only now they think he could be a support from them if they were the next victims.

Ds is autistic and has very strong morals.

So I'd like to think he'd have done something to support you in your situation. He's certainly shown he'll sway from a crowd to stand up for what's right before.

I'm sorry that happened to you. This is something that worries me greatly.

I always felt DS1 (25) would say or do something in that situation but DS2 (our youngest and quite naive/cossetted) is about to start secondary this year and I hate that we are going to have conversations about exactly this. He is the only one from his small primary school going to his secondary so we won't know any of the others in his class/year. Or if we do know them we won't know them well.

I have already discussed this with DD2 (15) who is at the school and I hope if he doesn't feel comfortable talking to me then he will talk to her, but most of all I hope he feel able to speak up or do something if ever faced with a situation like yours.

Thank you . I've tried to keep it brief and not put too much detail, because even though I want to talk about it, the issue I'm pointing out is more important. Plus I'm sure it happened to many other girls and women before me and after me.

I do hope that in time change can happen, where it can happen, but uncomfortable conversations must be had first.

Hmm. My DS1 (16) would definitely say something, then He’d walk away and try to get others on side. I hope he’d get someone but I doubt he’d have the confidence. He knows he should…. But I’m not sure he’s brave enough…
I know that’s shit. He knows that’s shit. We’ve spoken about it. I wish I could say that knowing was enough. I can’t.
My DS3 (8) and DS2(9) would say something (and in DS3’s case, physically act) in the context of bullying…. I hope this extends to situations like you describe when they’re older.
DD (14) would act (most likely by saying something then calling me). But then, she’s a girl.

I am sitting in my bedroom just now with my son and his friends and their girlfriends all downstairs laughing their heads off about something or other. All in their early 20s, a variety of backgrounds but all good people.

Our door is always open and in fact we have my other sons friends girlfriend coming to stay for a week later this month. She'd rather come here than stay with her mother which is quite sad really.

I've always made sure I've known their friends since preschool and even if I have t met them physically, my kids are very open about who they are. One of mine has friends from abroad who he knows through gaming and work that he's never physically met. I still shout "hello whoever it may be" on my way past the computer and get a hello back. You don't need to sit on them to get to know them, just be accessible and non judgemental.

@itsgettingweird

I'm so sorry that happened to you.

My ds was bullied at school. 2 main perpetrators and the usual people who never stood up for him.

One day the bulky jumped him from behind in the school corridor and ds shoved him extremely hard yelling to to tick off and never lay a finger on him again.

Witnessed by a teacher who confirmed ds did no wrong.

The kid ended up with a broken arm.

Suddenly all the bystanders wanted to be ds best friend. He told them all to do one as they didn't want to be his friend when they though he was the victim - only now they think he could be a support from them if they were the next victims.

Ds is autistic and has very strong morals.

So I'd like to think he'd have done something to support you in your situation. He's certainly shown he'll sway from a crowd to stand up for what's right before.

He sounds awesome. I'm sorry he was bullied though and that it had to come to that.

Don't blame him for "rejecting " his so called peers after. I retreated from mine too. The confusion and sense of betrayal was massive, sometimes even more so than with the two ring leaders. At least those I knew were arseholes and there had been some low level bullying and scuffles before that.

I have two boys OP, still young.

This really worries me. They are lovely caring boys, but they are as vulnerable to peer pressure as anyone else, and the insidious constant messages that women are mainly there to look pretty & be nice to men.

I've made a consistent effort to shut down the usual constrictive gender bollocks, girl is NEVER used as an insult in my home, we talk about everyone being individuals etc etc when it arises and so on.

But one day, Mum becomes the fun police and the influence of their peers will get much greater. I hope we can keep talking & the foundations of good people are laid.

I'm so sorry that happened to you. You are right, we need to talk about this a lot more.

Sorry you went through that OP. I would also like to think that those boys (men now) do regret what they did.

On a similar note we need to think about this in regards to girls too. I KNOW my girls are kind and inclusive and wouldn’t intentionally hurt someone’s feelings but could they stand up to a stronger personality if they were being unkind to someone? I’m really not so sure. Something to think about and work on.

@Shimmyshimmycocobop

I hear you op many parents think their dc are good boys but probably don't know the half of it. I have known ds2's friends since they were in primary, or most of them at least. Ds tells me that most of his friends make sexist and homophobic jokes which they would not do in certain company, ie in front of girls or their mums. He used to call it out, not least because Ds1 is gay but grew tired of being the "fun police". He is now looking forward to Uni and widening his social circle and meeting more like minded people.

Sadly it doesn't end at university (though the move gives him the chance to choose a fresh, better group of friends). Universities are rife with sexual abuse.

It's a hard balance to strike. Fitting in, forming strong bonds with peers, finding their "tribe" , but also being strong and confident enough to go against said tribe when they are hurting someone else.

They acted like it never happened, still trying to be friends, joke around ,do homework together. I had to spend another year in that class before finally moving schools and it was hell. There was gossip and sniggers too. I had a "reputation " because some of them did tell, but not to anyone of importance. Just other boys ,till it got around my neighbourhood and even my new high school. Then I had to move again, because by then I was the loose girl who had a gang bang with 10 boys at 14.

I hope now that if boys feel like they can't do anything in the moment , at least they'd have the kind of relationship with their parents or another adult where they'd tell them and things would be done, other girls would get help and support.

The only time my eldest got beaten up
was when he stuck up for another pupil who was being verbally abused for being gay. The perpetrator (surrounded by his mates) got my DS on his way home from school.
The school were great and he got an internal exclusion for several days. DS didn't want me to go to the police but the perpetrators parents were made aware of what happened (and why) and told that we would escalate it to the police if anything happened towards my son from the perpetrator or his friends.
I'm proud of him for standing up for someone, but unfortunately it was not without consequences.

@hunder

The only time my eldest got beaten up was when he stuck up for another pupil who was being verbally abused for being gay. The perpetrator (surrounded by his mates) got my DS on his way home from school. The school were great and he got an internal exclusion for several days. DS didn't want me to go to the police but the perpetrators parents were made aware of what happened (and why) and told that we would escalate it to the police if anything happened towards my son from the perpetrator or his friends. I'm proud of him for standing up for someone, but unfortunately it was not without consequences.

I'm so sorry that happened.

Tbh I'm not advocating boys(or anyone) actively putting themselves in danger. Of course, speaking out in the moment can always carry that risk so that's another hard balance to strike.

But at least tell someone,an adult,a person that can help if not during the fact,at least after.

How horrific op so sorry you experienced that.

I also remember as a teen the difference between how “nice boys” acted in front of adults and how they were unsupervised. The urge to stay “in the gang” is very very powerful especially for teens. I have girls if I had boys this would really worry me too.

I'm so sorry that that happened to you, OP. It sounds like it was a really traumatic experience.

I only have a dd, but I want to speak up for her friends who are boys. There have been a couple of instances where they have been "tested" over the last couple of years, by being witness to some horrible behaviour from other boys towards some of the girls in the group. They didn't just stand back and let it happen, they intervened and stopped it.

I want to believe that things are changing, and that more boys would take action these days. I know that lots still wouldn't, and we need to address that. Maybe I'm being naive to think that they would be more likely to step in these days. Maybe dd is just lucky with her particular group of friends as they seem very aware of these issues. Much more so than my male friends were when I was growing up.

None of it changes the awful, horrible thing that happened to you. And sadly, we know that many more young girls will be subjected to similar abuse while others stand and look on. But I would like to think that things might be changing at least a little.

I'm sorry that happened to you OP.

I'm always shocked when I hear of boys who have abused girls/young women and their parents and whose parents stand up for them saying 'he would not have done it' or who blame the girl or accuse her of lying.

@AlexaShutUp

I'm so sorry that that happened to you, OP. It sounds like it was a really traumatic experience.

I only have a dd, but I want to speak up for her friends who are boys. There have been a couple of instances where they have been "tested" over the last couple of years, by being witness to some horrible behaviour from other boys towards some of the girls in the group. They didn't just stand back and let it happen, they intervened and stopped it.

I want to believe that things are changing, and that more boys would take action these days. I know that lots still wouldn't, and we need to address that. Maybe I'm being naive to think that they would be more likely to step in these days. Maybe dd is just lucky with her particular group of friends as they seem very aware of these issues. Much more so than my male friends were when I was growing up.

None of it changes the awful, horrible thing that happened to you. And sadly, we know that many more young girls will be subjected to similar abuse while others stand and look on. But I would like to think that things might be changing at least a little.

Your daughter's friends sound great and your post fills me with hope so thank you for that. I really believe looking at this side of things (not just thinking having a decent kid -and most kids are decent -is enough)can truly make a difference .