Why is food in schools so bad the U.K.?

[workwoes123]

This may count as a TAAT but it’s more a thread inspired by a thread .

I’m British, I remember fairly crap school dinners in the 1980s. fizzy juice on tap, chips most days. But that was 30 years and an obesity crisis ago.

I live in France now and my kids are in french schools. There are no snacks, no breakfasts, no vending machines, no play pieces. School dinner is a salad starter, a main course with meat / fish / chicken plus veg and carbs, followed by cheese / yoghurt and fruit / occasional dessert. That’s it, for a school day that starts at 8am and finishes at 4:30pm. Today the menu was:

Green salad / tomato pasta salad / beetroot salad
Beef stew / cod in curry sauce with mashed potatoes and mixed vegetables
Cheese or yoghurt
Fruit or isles flottantes (meringue on custard).

I’ve just been on a thread where children in a U.K. secondary school are being offered chocolate croissants for breakfast, bacon / sausage sarnies as a snack (a snack!), iced buns as an afternoon snack. Is this normal? All of this is in addition to a the actual school lunch? Why are the children so hungry that they need snacks as well as a meal?

Did Jamie Oliver not sort all this out? I had this vague idea that school food in the U.K. had improved since I were a lass - has it?

@lechatnoir

The French school lunch is so much more than just a meal and sounds AMAZING (or it is where my niece and nephew go but I gather very typical). They all sit down together for a 3 course meal, cutlery, table cloths and napkins all used properly. Food very much as described above - salad or vegetable starter, main course with lean protein often fish with a side of varied and lovely sounding veg, some sort of grain or occasionally potato but never fried, sometime cheese & crackers, often a fruit salad, occasionally a small slice of a homemade tart and a piece of baguette offered. Water in glasses for all. Portions are modest but more than adequate, children all eat and talk together at the table and wait until everyone is done and it's really quite a leisurely affair. I'm sure there are some children who struggle with this but my DS isn't aware of any and said it's just the cultural norm there and no one questions it. Like I said, AMAZING

@lechatnoir that sounds lovely. Another thing I can’t stand about school dinners other than the actual food is those awful plastic divided trays. Like in prison. And those tables with attached stools. How can a child sit properly with good posture?? When I was at school we sad at tables and chairs. We all helped to stack the chairs afterwards. It’s not difficult to provide proper seating.

Partly because the caterers are given a small amount of money to make a nutritious meal from and that has to include a profit for the company.
Partly because whenever my school puts a healthy meal out, most of it goes in the bin. Thats a slight exaggeration but mackerel and salad lasted one meal and never reappeared.

There’s also a similar ‘quatre heures’ tradition in Spain, you’ll usually get a sandwich or mini-baguette with something sugary in it when you come out of school. But this is literally the only sweet / industrial treat most children have in a day.

You read threads on here and there are people giving their children crisps and a chocolate biscuit in their packed lunch, snack on the way home, and pudding every night. There will be even more sugar at the weekends. Add in a takeaway or two. That’s just insane amounts of sugar, salt and processed food that kids shouldn’t eat.

@lechatnoir

Absolutely no tablecloths or napkins are used at lunchtime in MIL’s (French) school. As if! Primary school children spill stuff everywhere, it’s a complete waste of time!

@EileenGC

I can’t comment on Spain as my knowledge is limited to a few friend’s experiences, but I absolutely can comment on France and it’s not the paradise OP is making out here.

I know it's not very balanced- but to be honest my children are very picky eaters and this school menu really suits them.😃

And tbh, I’m always in a constant battle with DH (French) over the kid’s breakfasts. He wants to give them Nutella brioche or pain au chocolate with a bowl (not cup) of chocolate milk (a typical French breakfast) and I’m unhappy with this and try to offer boiled eggs or porridge (which they will also happily eat).

[quote MadameHeisenberg]@EileenGC

I can’t comment on Spain as my knowledge is limited to a few friend’s experiences, but I absolutely can comment on France and it’s not the paradise OP is making out here.[/quote]
It’s definitely not a paradise. There are obese children and malnourished children in those countries too, of course. There are children there whose parents feed them tonnes of sugar, chips and burgers.

But what OP is accurately explaining, is that the general attitude to food is much healthier than it is in the UK. It’s not perfect, it’s not a paradise, but it’s a different culture which values a healthy diet and feeds their children slightly more balanced meals.

We have some variety in our school dinners, but since starting working in a school for our local authority I've started giving my children packed lunches. The portion sizes are ridiculous and don't vary from P1-P7, and everything looks anaemic. Hot dog day is one or two grey and soggy looking sausages in a dry bun. "Italian pasta" or bolognese day looks like it came from a tin, but drier. Veggies are always optional and always unseasoned and boring, and fruit salad looks like it came from a big tin.

My Dcs High School (Scotland) offers 'Pasta pots' from a pasta cart. Or cheap Baguettes. And Chips. All kids age 13+ pile out into town to eat from Greggs (pasties, hot chocolate), a pancake & milkshake shop, or the Chippie. Deep fried pizza anyone? My daughter has Autism and is part of a 'chat & chill' group of kids with SEN. Next week the teacher is taking them to the Chippy for lunch so they can 'be like the others'.

There is a compromise between bacon sandwiches and not catering for allergies and dietary needs, while allowing children to have a choice in what they like and don't like (to take the salad example... one of mine would happily eat cucumber lettuce, peppers, sweetcorn, radishes etc but not touch tomato... is there really any benefit forcing her to eat the only vegetable she doesn't like? The distaste includes stuff like ketchup incidentally, although tomato based pasta sauces are manageable).

I don't think its fair to blame schools for obesity though... a lot of the blame lies with food poverty and lack of education around nutrition and portion sizes.

@MadameHeisenberg

And tbh, I’m always in a constant battle with DH (French) over the kid’s breakfasts. He wants to give them Nutella brioche or pain au chocolate with a bowl (not cup) of chocolate milk (a typical French breakfast) and I’m unhappy with this and try to offer boiled eggs or porridge (which they will also happily eat).

Ah yes the breakfasts not quite so healthy in fact the other extreme. much like many mixed households by the sounds of it - French BIL offering hot chocolate, croissants, Nutella etc and DSis trying to encourage a big more of a balanced meal with sweeter options saved for the weekend.

that the general attitude to food is much healthier than it is in the UK

How do you know? Are are you just extrapolating to France from your own experience of Spain?

I disagree, it isn’t ‘much’ healthier. Overall the general food culture probably is healthier, but not because of any kind of moral superiority. Historically, the abundance of fruit and vegetables available in France or Spain across the year is far greater than a Northern European island like the UK. For example, olive oil was (and still is to an extent), a luxury in the UK, not a staple like in France and Spain.

I work in a large primary school, we use the LA caterers. The menu is pretty good with plenty of fresh healthy food. However, generally speaking and yes I know there are exceptions:

Children will not eat fruit, vegetables or salad
There is mountains of waste
Children have no table manners

We are low pupil premium so this is not a question of poverty.

Whoever said school dinners are a reflection of home is spot on.

They introduced fresh salmon a while back, children wouldn't eat it. They wrapped it in batter, children ate the batter and left the salmon.

I taught in London, and it wasn't bad. The kids brought their own piece of fruit and water bottle for a morning snack and had a decent lunch, with a vegetarian option. It always included a dessert though (not just fruit!), which seems a bit obesogenic if it's every day.

It’s contracted out to big companies like serco who purely want to make profit. So they put in machines selling cheap fizzy drinks etc. Arranged at county level so the actual school has very little say in it.

Our county council is Tory led and i imagine most of them have kids in private schools. They don’t give a shit.

Schools should certainly offer healthy food options, but as a pp said, not catering for vegetarians or Muslim children, while not allowing packed lunches, is really not something to be proud of.

Also, forcing a child to eat something they dislike is wrong, no matter how healthy you think the food is, and even if everyone else is eating it. The obsession with conformity and all children doing exactly the same thing regardless of their needs and preferences is really pronounced in some schools. It's not good for anyone.

@AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken

It just reflect what they eat at home.

I’m ve lost count of the number of parents I know who’ve said “X only eats fish fingers and chicken nuggets” or “I have to make three different meals or they wouldn’t eat”

In fact, just look at threads on here.

this is true , but its very very hard when you have a fussy eater who just refuses to even try just something different . it makes no difference what is said or even bribary wont work she just wont have it and will in fact literally go hungry rather than eat or try anything different than the norm of what she likes

and the sad thing is as a toddler she ate and tried lots of different things and has just got more and more fussy as shes got older .
it makes shopping bloody annoying and difficult as are options for eating out

@MadameHeisenberg

I'm certainly not saying it's a 'paradise' here, I said in my last post that France and other EU countries have an increasing obesity problem, and it's partly down to the ongoing breakdown of the 'rules' around eating. MacDonalds is a funny one, you're right that it's super popular here (especially at motorway service stations for some reason). My 14 year old sometimes asks to eat out with his friends at lunchtime - they sometimes go to MacD, sometimes a kebab, sometimes sushi or noodles.

I guess schools can't be isolated from the wider culture of the society they are located in. I'm from Scotland, I'm gobsmacked every time I go back by the food that is on offer, how cheap it is, the huge portion sizes - and by levels of obesity which seem to get worse every time I visit.

@workwoes123

But why is it like this? When there is an obesity crisis in the U.K.? Isn’t it an obvious thing to target?

Jamie Oliver tried. It didn't work. Parents were not in board.

Also, although menus sound like they are full of sugar, remover that everything is more controlled than that. Portions are small and sweet treats, like cakes, have very little sugar, salt or seasoning. The means aren't at all what some posters believe - when it says things like fish and chips, it's not like the children get some huge fish shop portion.

There's a reason why most school,staff no longer eat school dinners - without the salt and sugar, much of it is fairly tasteless!

Veg (I assumed boiled) is served with some meals but I’m pretty sure kids can leave it on their plates.

What do you think schools should do instead? Refuse to start the afternoon lessons until everyone's eaten their carrots?!

I went to school in the 1960s/70s. Water to drink. No chips, no options, no fat kids.

I was at school all through the 80s. There were one or two noticeably overweight children but most were thin. The food at infants/juniors was as you describe for the previous decade, but at secondary school it was a different story - a counter where you chose what you want as you went along - there was always a hot dog or burger-in-a-bun, chips, peculiarly sloppy ravioli (which I'd give anything to taste again!), something like cottage pie or shepherd's pie ... and one salad choice, a plate full of limp lettuce. Fish 'n' chips on Fridays. Fizzy drinks that came in plastic 'cans' - your choice of lemonade, orangeade, cola or shandy. Max Pax vending machine if you wanted tea or coffee.

Then, the usual sponge puddings and weirdly-coloured iced slices, topped off by a selection of crisps and chocolate bars at the till.

I, along with many, usually took sandwiches - not for health reasons but because you wasted half your lunch hour queueing if you wanted to buy lunch. However, the way it worked, you didn't have to say in advance if you wanted a school dinner, you just queued and paid. People who got free school meals had tokens to pay with, which they could top up with cash if they wanted more - I don't think the crisps/chocolate etc. were covered by the tokens.

Despite this terribly unhealthy choice, there were still very few fat children - so either we must all have been burning it off by being more active or less was eaten at other meals to make up for the lunchtime calories. There wasn't a snacking culture in those days, which must have helped. 'You'll spoil your dinner' was the response to any requests for food between meals because you were 'staaarving!'

So due to climate and geography, historically and culturally, we’ve grown up with a more limited range of fresh fruit and vegetables compared to Mediterranean countries. The legacy of this continues to the present day.

Things have changed and with globalisation and we have many more options, but that then begs the question, should we really be importing stuff from all over the globe? The French don’t need to import figs or olives or oranges and the Spanish don’t even need to import bananas. The quality is subsequently better as the produce is picked when it’s ready, not way in advance to allow for traveling.

So, the attitude to food is at least party explained by a history of what’s been available to eat.

[quote Youngstreet]@HalfShrunkMoreToGo.
Why can they not put Quiche?
Cheese flan sounds so wrong to my ears.
Sorry, missing the point here.

Sounds a decent menu tbf.[/quote]
But cheese flan is one of the best parts of the school menu options.
School dinner cheese flan is actually really tasty.
Not that most of the children choose it.

Also, forcing a child to eat something they dislike is wrong, no matter how healthy you think the food is, and even if everyone else is eating it. The obsession with conformity and all children doing exactly the same thing regardless of their needs and preferences is really pronounced in some schools. It's not good for anyone

This is such a proveleged attitude though.

None of us grew up with options like a restaurant surely ? There were times i had no dinner because I didn't like it at home.
Sometimes food is just fuel fir the day. If you are hungry eat it. If not leave it. Not everything has to be be delicious and what you want all the time.