How did we survive the olden days?

[AnneLovesGilbert]

I watched a film last night, it wasn’t amazing but it got me thinking again about how so many people survived how awful life must have been so we’d end up here. A woman was giving birth on a muddy floor in a grim looking freezing cold castle. My mum wouldn’t have made it, so I wouldn’t be here and none of my younger siblings would exist. If I miraculously had I wouldn’t have survived several childhood illnesses, never mind appendicitis and the other things modern medicine has saved me from.

The film was about Mary queen of Scots so set in the mid 16th century and maternal and infant mortality was incredibly high but it wasn’t just that. Those women will have survived so many things to even get old enough to get pregnant. And how many men died in the endless sodding wars.

Baffles me.

Victorian cities could be very smelly places:

In 1849, an inspection of over fifteen thousand houses was made in the City of London. Some of the results were disturbing. Twenty-one houses used their cellar as a cesspool; thirty had cesspools that were overflowing; and two hundred and twenty-three cesspools were classed as ‘full’. Around five thousand more were classified as ‘offensive’ or ‘unhealthy’. Of the houses inspected, this represents approximately a third having major problems with human refuse.

publicism.info/history/victorian/4.html

Watching Miss Potter movie brought home how short life could be in Victorian Times.
We think we are so educated and intelligent but just living from one year to another in Victorian Times , where did your food come from throughout the winter? How did you keep your family warm? Makes me realise how stupid we are about so much these days.

We were walking through an extremely old graveyard this year and I was surprised as to the ages. I suppose we believe nowadays we have it so much better and live lives that are five fold that of people in the past, but there were a lot in their eighties and nineties and the general age group was seventies or sixties. (Sadly a lot of babies born as angels and people in their thirties too. And why do you think your mum wouldn't have made it?!

@Lockheart

Individuals may have died, but the population survived.

We are, today, rich and spoilt beyond the wildest dreams of our ancestors. I am not wealthy by modern standards and yet I'm sitting in a warm, waterproof room with carpet on the floor and glass in the windows. I have comfortable furniture and many more clothes than I need. I can go to my kitchen and have a choice of exotic fruit and vegetables. I can eat meat every day, if I choose, and have fresh bread and milk. I have (far too much) chocolate and other luxury sweets. I have ice cream! I have a shelf full of books. I have medicine which does not cripple me financially. I do not need to fear being ill or injured. Even just 4 generations ago this level of luxury would have been unthinkable.

We really do lose sight of just how lucky we are, sometimes.

Well said!

@Imtoooldforallthis

Not quite the same, but everytime my elderly mum complains about how cold her house is I ask her how my grandparents managed without central heating or double glazing, she never answers me.

Neither should she. She probably would have died of cold before now. Having lived in times most of the younger generation cannot conceive, your mum may very well take this as wishing her dead.

Have you lived with ice on the inside of the windows? Have you lived with no heating or hot water piped all around your home? Has the water in your loo ever frozen?

Are you wishing her dead?

People back then were born into those circumstances. It was their normal life and they didn't know any different.

In developing countries, people, still live in very difficult circumstances.

Thinking of the good points pp have made about how fortunate we are, I am reminded of an interview with someone who had recently made the channel crossing in terrible circumstances - he said "we want your lives". Who can blame them?

As said above when infant mortality was high there was also no contraception so (fertile) people often had large numbers of children. Therefore in survival terms it didn't matter that some died.... Not that that would have stopped it being heartbreaking on an individual basis. Also women dying in childbirth was common and a lot of men, especially the rich ones just married again.

Her house isn't cold, it's constantly 26 degrees!!!

People died young of infection, disease, childbirth, industrial accidents.
They had much less death from ‘modern day’ diseases like diabetes, heart disease, strokes.
They were much tougher in some ways.

everytime my elderly mum complains about how cold her house is I ask her how my grandparents managed without central heating or double glazing.

How sweet. Have you thought of helping her with insulation or heating bills?

[quote Maireas]@BarbaraofSeville - so sad, Charlotte died with her unborn child [/quote]
Yes, they think she died of hyperemesis.

@Imtoooldforallthis

Not quite the same, but everytime my elderly mum complains about how cold her house is I ask her how my grandparents managed without central heating or double glazing, she never answers me.

Your poor mum. Can't she afford to keep warm? Maybe have a check if there's anything you can do to help insulate it. Things like heavy door curtains for external doors and draught excluders along the bottom of internal doors can make a big difference. Make sure she's got enough warm clothes and is layering up. I'm wfh and try tlnot to have the heating on during the day when I'm home alone so I wear a thick fleece dressing gown over my clothes and slipper boots with a proper sole which keep me warm enough.

Cross-posted with your response that it’s 26 degrees. If she still feels cold, you could get her to see her GP. Then if there’s nothing wrong with her, just old age, you could buy her a light shawl or body warmer. Something to make her feel cosier. People feel the cold more as they get older.

Well, lots of people died.
For those thinking about period pain, you wouldn’t have been menstruating very much. Modern women have significantly more periods in their lifetimes.

Literally called backbone which is few and far seen now. You only need to look at MN and the people who can't make a single decision without consulting randoms on the internet.

Doing your family tree is very instructive. Many, many children died in infancy - and then you find adults in Victorian times surviving into their 60s (not unusual), 70s and even (rare) their 80s.

For anyone interested in childbirth in the past, have a read of 'A Midwife's Tale: the diary of Martha Ballard' by Laurel Thatcher Ulrich. Martha lived in Maine in the 1800s and the book is fascinating, Ulrich dissects the diary and uses it to discuss the social history of the place and time, but esp Martha's work as a skilled midwife.

@AnneLovesGilbert

Interesting thoughts. I suppose suffering is relative.

The other thing that occurred to me was given how difficult the day to day must have been - even if it didn’t seem so - staggering numbers of people died for their religion. I don’t have one but on the pyramid of needs food, shelter, safety and life would seem more important.

I know this is in reference to the “olden days” and assuming in reference to western Europe etc, but it’s staggering even today how many people are killed, abducted or are victims of violence because of their faith. It’s not something I suppose you see on the news regularly. The International Society for Human Rights Record say around 10,000 Christians are killed every year for their faith. Over 1,700 Christians were abducted in 2020 alone too, and that’s just the recorded cases.

Even the pandemic has caused a rise in persecution too - Christians faced discrimination in receiving covid relief in Malaysia, Vietnam, Ethiopia, Nigeria, Middle East for instance.

@Imtoooldforallthis

Not quite the same, but everytime my elderly mum complains about how cold her house is I ask her how my grandparents managed without central heating or double glazing, she never answers me.

how elderly is elderly? I am 68, the youngest of my family. We didn't have a home with running hot water and central heating until I was 12 and that wasn't unusual. We were working class but assuredly not poor. Double glazing was unheard of.

I hope French think about the day to day discomfort of "the past". Clothes without the warming properties of todays douvet coats. Shit shoes. Outhouses meaning a cold bottom every time you pee. Tooth ache period pains cystitis thrush colds and flu - all without painkillers. Damp sheets. Itchy wool jumpers. Nits. Lice. The physical Labour of cooking and heating.

@Kshhuxnxk

Literally called backbone which is few and far seen now. You only need to look at MN and the people who can't make a single decision without consulting randoms on the internet.

but that's confirmational bias.....you don't know how many people lead their lives without MN or who are members but don't come on here for advice.

[quote FeelingBlu92]@Kanaloa

I an old book recently where a husband referred to his wife as the mother of his ‘six living children and three dead.’ Just matter of factly not as a ‘how tragic is this’ thing. Nowadays to lose three little children (or even one) would be a horrific tragedy but back then it was a fact of life.

Look at 'Anne of Green Gables' - the neighbour talks casually of having 'Buried two children', yet still recommends beating Anne! She's not even meant to be a cold nasty person. I can't imagine a bereaved mother today judging other parents for not being strict enough! But back then child mortality was so normal it just didn't have the same impact. It was just expected, with the hope one or 2 at least would make it through to adulthood. Like tadpoles, or bunnies.[/quote]
If I remember rightly, when Anne herself has her first baby in the later books, the baby dies before sunset on the day it’s born. It’s a heartbreaking detail, but must have been so common at the time

@stayathomer

We were walking through an extremely old graveyard this year and I was surprised as to the ages. I suppose we believe nowadays we have it so much better and live lives that are five fold that of people in the past, but there were a lot in their eighties and nineties and the general age group was seventies or sixties. (Sadly a lot of babies born as angels and people in their thirties too. And why do you think your mum wouldn't have made it?!

The high mortality rates in early childhood bring down the average life expectancy. If you survived your first 5 years, you had a reasonable chance of making 60, and a small chance of making 80.

in my mother's day it was a thing to take out a penny insurance policy on babies to pay for the funeral if it was needed. Once the child got to age 10 or so, the policy was made "paid up" meaning that it no more premiums needed to be paid and the policy would still pay out when the person died. the amount it paid out was not a lot. I still have got the one that her mother bought and paid into when my oldest sibling was born.

@Imtoooldforallthis

Not quite the same, but everytime my elderly mum complains about how cold her house is I ask her how my grandparents managed without central heating or double glazing, she never answers me.

This seems a bit unsympathetic?! Maybe you expressed yourself badly.

Many people die earlier than they otherwise would due to cold and damp conditions. Being cold is very uncomfortable.