Is medicine 'messing with nature'?

[XmasCrap]

Prompted by something I read earlier and a discussion at the dinner table this evening.

Do you consider medicine to be 'messing with nature'? Keeping people alive, albeit not 'well', so poor quality of life. IVF - if not allowed, people would unfortunately be childless and that would be that. Transplants, etc.

Is medicine to blame for some of the problems the NHS experiences?

I would think that thinking it would be better to refuse treatment/ hosp/ whatever it is (certainly let them die to save beds being blocked),

But not wanting to consider any ethics/ RL practicalities etc.

Isn't that rather sociopathic thinking?!

OP I think maybe you're not expressing what you mean.

Can you write in straight language what suggestion you would like to discuss?

Yes of course it’s ‘messing with nature’. But what’s the problem with that?

Nature is cruel. People die long before their time. People suffer greatly throughout their lives. And people die painful deaths.

Whether medicine is sometimes used to prolong people’s lives, when it would be kinder to let them die, is a different question entirely.

Euthanasia is also a medical procedure.

Is medicine messing with nature?

A lot of the toime, yes.

Is nature always benign?

Hell, no.

So if the bitch messes with us, we mess with her. End of story.
Without modern medicine, my DD2 would be dead from appendicitis. As it is, she's alive and well, studying marine biology and conservation and planning to do a lot of good work to preserve our oceans. That's a win for medicine in my book.

Lots of medication is based and nature, willow bark is used as pain killers for centuries, it's now the reason behind aspirin and other painkillers you swallow without thinking.

Garlic is a natural anitbacterial, honey was used on open wounds to heal and disinfect.

That's just the tip of the iceberg.

You could argue that modern medicine as its disadvantages. We keep humans alive where we would put a pet down because we don't want to delay its suffering.

But key hole surgery means I have a functioning knee again, DD can eat without issues, my FIL is able to walk with a new hip joint, my MIL survived two cancer scares.

A cousin has a healthy life thanks to open heart surgery as an infant.

Friends rely on insulin to survive.

The problems are that not enough prevention is done. No money for check ups or community nurses to avoid long-term health issues which could be often discovered earlier but aren't as money is not poured into these areas. Hence so many elderly people ending up at A&E as check ups and reviews for conditions are cancelled.

Well , you can see from history how life was before medicine. I have a feeling that's not actually what you'd want or what you're talking about.

From your examples (bar ivf) you're actually asking is it better to let people die? From birth to old age.

History we didn't have so many medicines but they did exist!

Would have to go back to before modern humans evolved, at least!

This statement of OP is way more interesting than the

Who shall we leave to die, let's chat, but I'm not prepared to discuss any of the ethics surrounding it...😕😕😂😂🙄

Good dinner table topic… define “nature”, when you find out that other animals may self-medicate too. At some level, surely just searching out needed food supplies is the same as self medicating (thinking of elephants and their quests for salt licks, forming what you could almost call ‘mines’).

Personally I like vaccines and care through pregnancy childbirth and the human race has been doing that since way before history began. There’s evidence of our cousins the Neanderthals caring for disability too.

Just thought-

OP raising whether people of whatever sort she had in mind when wrote posts not getting 'medicines' due to cost/benefit type evaluation.
With reference to NHS.

Is an interesting subject for discussion, while around the world access to docs, hosp, drugs etc is extremely variable, many can't get to/ can't afford etc much or anything at all.

Also eg HIV although generally overlooked in favour of Spanish flu when talking covid/ pandemics from past.
Was and is a global pandemic that's still causing massive harm in some parts of world.
Here it's not life cut short, only question is when disgnosis. With medicines no impact on how long live brilliant.

I wonder with the idea of cost/ benefit etc approach in her posts. What that would have meant when no treatment/ early not v effective treatments for HIV were all we had. It was a death sentence. That was not acceptable. So labs etc kept at it. And now there's various drugs doing brilliant things.
If let nature take course back then, would work to look for treatments have ever happened? I mean in theory, not real world we aren't only ones looking for new drugs iyswim.

So many interesting areas to get into!

And as @reluctantbrit says, parsley is a digestive tonic and blood cleanser, sage is good against colds (don’t take it for too long), and rosemary and thyme both are powerful antibacterial and antiseptics.

Medicine is DESIGNED to mess with nature. That's the point. Nature is mindless and doesn't care. Nature would have left me and my baby son dead. Medicine saved us.

Opium. Natural. And still one of the best most effective (and, taken appropriately, safest) painkillers.

Well quite, parsley!

Reading that post and thinking, I realised the point that is bubbling under all this...

IF we had as a species never tried/ used/ discovered that eg this plant helps infection die down etc.

Then we would have to be a fundamentally different species.

I can think of 2 ways would be different-

If never in whole history found out about things that had useful medicinal effect, then looked for more and more etc and still looking now. We surely would need to not have characteristics of being inquisitive, observant, able to link things IE cause and effect, not be experimental, innovative etc. Meaning that we would still be hunter gatherers or what we were right at start. Meaning not having the same intelligence? Or as intelligent but 100% focused elsewhere. On what, who can say!

Were same intelligence, curiosity etc etc.
But zero interest in anything to do with healing etc for ourselves or any other humans.
I'm counting that option out I think as survival of species is fundamental. And if just couldn't care less about anyone who was ill, injured etc then I can't see us surviving given we work together in groups and that's how we're successful. Alone we're pretty vulnerable.
Also if no emotion about live/ ill/die/ just don't care. What would that mean for our babies? Given their total dependence for ages after born.

Digitalis (foxglove)-
Used to treat certain heart conditions.
Too much- effective poison!

Antibiotics-
Moulds, tree bark etc. Assume synthesised now..
Still scientists in deep jungles etc looking for new ones.

As per pp opiates ie poppies. Still made from the plants.

Drugs laws meant certain things IE cannabis, LSD, put to one side not studied as poss medicines.

Even though cannabis used around the place medicinal properties vv well known all over the place, due to recreational use, just deemed. Just no even though well known therapeutic effects?

I mean ridiculous.

LSD (from compound in mould iirc) was researched heavily, finding a host of areas it seemed to be beneficial from some MH problems to treating addiction. Was produced as a drug for some and prescribed.
Wiki really interesting.
Recreational use got reputation as A Bad Thing.
End of research, being prescribed etc.

Yep silly.

Is medicine to blame for some of the problems the NHS experiences?

What is the NHS for, if not for delivering medical care? You can’t get rid of “medicine” and still have an NHS.

We could just let people die of treatable illnesses - diphtheria, cholera, polio etc. Let women due in childbirth. Not bother treating heart attacks, strokes or cancer. Let appendixes rupture and kill children. All totally natural. Not sure it would be an improvement though.

Yep quite I pointed this out to op earlier.

That bold solution would be not to treat anyone, then all beds will be free!

OP has stated not interested in discussing the specifics of her parameters around who doesn't get hosp/ medicine etc.
What ideas she has around what happens with them instead.
Any challenges/ questions/ possible consequences of the proposal.

In fact stated not interested in discussing ANY ethical considerations or real life practicalities etc.

OP has insisted though that proposal isn't ageist. Even though... Clearly the majority who get denied treatment/ a bed will be elderly.

It's been a really interesting thread though. Despite OP deciding not to engage with those who took the time to read, think, comment.

Which is a shame because I'm really interested why medicines against nature examples were IVF and transplants.

Everyone is going to die. Treating any life-threatening/limiting condition or injury is only delaying the inevitable. I sure as shit wouldn't want to stop doing it though.

Reading that post and thinking, I realised the point that is bubbling under all this... IF we had as a species never tried/ used/ discovered that eg this plant helps infection die down etc. Then we would have to be a fundamentally different species.

Exactly. If you want to complain that we are messing with ‘nature’, you have to ask at some point what this mythical ‘nature’ is. Eventually you might realise that it’s not static, and not one entity.

We are nature, as are the other keystone species out there. Despite what some poor sods stuck in poverty in cities all their lives can’t see (or what the rich buggers who want to keep them there want us to think). Ecology is complex. Start realising that and perhaps more will take some responsibility for it again.

I still can't see what the Op is thinking, is she meaning things like high blood pressure pills, and inhalers should be withdrawn?

Yes. It’s why Dementia is such a common disease now.
Medicine keeps the body alive far longer than it should, when the mind is dying.

@RunningFromInsanity

Yes. It’s why Dementia is such a common disease now. Medicine keeps the body alive far longer than it should, when the mind is dying.

Or it could just be the decline in smoking (natural tobacco) rates.

In general, medicine is just terrible now. I'm generally shocked at what kind of world we began to live in. We simply cannot be cured of a simple SARS. I think that many people should think about how to improve and strengthen their immunity on their own. For example, you can try Hometown Hero, which I have been using for a long time. The fact is that these supplements help you feel better. They help to improve immunity and normalize sleep. I think you should try it too and you will understand why this is an excellent remedy and stop going to the doctor.

It’s interesting what many people consider
To be a reasonable quality of life.

It’s much much lower than you’d think, when it comes down to it.