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What stage in British history do you think was the most defining moment?

90 replies

Nidan2Sandan · 19/12/2021 15:27

Pre 2020!

What point do you think has had the biggest or most profound affect on Britain.

For me, its Henry II and Simon DeMonfort. It was when the King no longer had ultimate, utilitarian rule over the lands and the beginnings of parliament were founded. Parliament we still have today (yes, yes, I know today's is pretty shit).

Just to be clear, there are no wrong answers Xmas Grin

OP posts:
dreamingbohemian · 19/12/2021 23:40

@Imdreamingofapeacefulxmas

Great thread, re slavery though wasn't it common at the time and even slavers from other countries came to our shores to try and capture Britons? It was rife everywhere? Very sadly the riches that it brought us here though is the foundation of many companies and buildings we see around us. Having said that it's also ironic how sugar has now led to a heath emergency. Feels like karma..
Of course slavery as an institution has existed since ancient times, but when people in the UK talk about slavery or the slave trade, they are usually referring specifically to the transatlantic slave trade, from the 16-19th centuries, which was quite distinct in its scale and brutality and impact

For this thread in particular, it's worth noting that without this transatlantic slave trade, you would not have seen such a powerful empire and all the wealth that facilitated the industrial revolution and everything else

VeniVidiWeeWee · 19/12/2021 23:41

In modern times 1941, Battle of Britain.

Without that the world would be very different.

sofiathe2nd · 19/12/2021 23:44

The Suez Canal crisis of 1956, possibly the point where the world ceased to look upon Britain as a global superpower

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

VeniVidiWeeWee · 19/12/2021 23:48

@dreamingbohemian

"referring specifically to the transatlantic slave trade, from the 16-19th centuries, which was quite distinct in its scale and brutality and impact"

It's estimated that in Sparta the slaves outnumbered the free by 7 to 1.

felulageller · 19/12/2021 23:52

No wonder the UK is separating.

Most of these are English history not British history!

BestZebbie · 20/12/2021 00:01

I think the flooding of Doggerland to create the English Channel in the Mesolithic period was a strong contender for the most defining moment.

Recently, Princess Charlotte of Wales dying in childbirth leading to the succession of Queen Victoria, and the timing such that she squeaked into adulthood by weeks before taking it on and thus avoided having her mother as her mouthpiece.

VeniVidiWeeWee · 20/12/2021 00:02

Apologies to @MarmiteyCrumpets

I hadn't read your post properly.

dreamingbohemian · 20/12/2021 00:04

[quote VeniVidiWeeWee]@dreamingbohemian

"referring specifically to the transatlantic slave trade, from the 16-19th centuries, which was quite distinct in its scale and brutality and impact"

It's estimated that in Sparta the slaves outnumbered the free by 7 to 1.[/quote]
So?

What does ancient Sparta have to do with British history?

Anyway. The total population of Sparta was never more than a couple hundred thousand people (estimated), the slave class comprised Greeks captured during intra-Greek warfare.

The transatlantic slave trade took at least 12 million people from Africa to the Americas, generating enormous profits that fuelled European empires into global superpower status. Not quite the same thing.

VladmirsPoutine · 20/12/2021 00:21

Colonisation, enslavement and invasion of Africa. The brits should have stayed home.

TomPinch · 20/12/2021 01:56

Re slavery.

It wasn't a commonplace in all societies before the nineteenth century. It did exist in the Middle East and North Africa, for example. But it didn't exist in medieval Britain or northern and western Europe, or at least not in any institutionalised, legal form and people from those places didn't trade in slaves until they began sailing to west Africa from the c17 onwards.

There was Anglo-Saxon bishop who attempted to stamp it out iirc so there must have been some back then

There was serfdom, but that's not the same thing, and even that had pretty much gone by the 1400s (miners in Scotland had to wait until the 1700s).

The other point is that while slavery certainly made some British people very rich its impact on the average British person was probably nil.

Nidan2Sandan · 20/12/2021 06:31

Whilst slavery was appalling, I dont feel it gave the same shift in history here as it did it in America.

For me, the constant upheaval and power grabbing of plantagenant and tudor eras caused ramifications long after. Even our own Royal family comes from the family line created by these shifts.

OP posts:
sashagabadon · 20/12/2021 07:47

A bit more recent but what about Big Bang deregulation in the City of London? That helped London and therefore the U.K. outcompete other nations and combined with Thatcher’s Right to Buy turned us all into a nation obsessed with house prices. Good for a few, terrible for many

SarahAndQuack · 20/12/2021 14:00

Parting from the Catholic Church also later facilitated the dawning of the Industrial Revolution and the accompanying Midland Enlightenment of science and arts. Creative development wasn't curtailed by the church as it was in some other European countries

Like where?

There's a really good book called 'The Light Ages' that debunks the myth of a medieval Catholic Church that was anti-science and reactionary.

TomPinch · 20/12/2021 21:18

That's very interesting SarahAndQuack. Added to the book list.

Even more recently, ie, post-Reformation, the European countries that led the way in science and tech would have been (Calvinist) Scotland, (Anglican) England and ... (Catholic) France. So as always with history, it's not that simple.

SarahAndQuack · 20/12/2021 22:22

I hope you enjoy it!

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 20/12/2021 22:41

@VeniVidiWeeWee

In modern times 1941, Battle of Britain.

Without that the world would be very different.

I've always believed that the Battle of Britain really isn't the defining moment the BBC One documentaries and such portray it as.

The narrative is often that had the RAF been defeated that German invasion and conquest would have automatically followed. This is hugely over-simplistic and totally ignores the reality of the practicalities involved.

Nazi Germany, for all it's conquests, never at any point launched an amphibious assault on the sort of scale that would have been required to effect a sustainable landing in the UK. If, a big if, the RAF had essentially been knocked out of the sky, Germany still faced the prospect of encountering the Home Fleet in the English Channel, which they had no capability whatsoever to match in a straight fight. Air superiority would have helped, but they still would not have been able to prevent the Royal Navy completely obliterating any attempt at a crossing of the Channel.

On top of this slight hinderance, Germany did not have the means to actually launch an amphibious crossing of the channel. They were having to commandeer river barges and coastal tugs as it was just to maintain their supply chain. They did not have the equipment necessary, as well as having absolutely no experience of mass amphibious assault, nor the developed doctrines the experience would provide. Even the conquest of Norway required mass transit of Nazi troops and material across neutral Sweden.

There were no realistic and viable plans drawn up by the General Staff for an amphibious invasion of the UK. Sea Lion was a hypothetical notion, a study into a possibility, and never really amounted to anything more than a discussion. It was quietly dropped in 1940 and never picked back up, partly because Hitler never really believed in conquest and occupation of the UK in any case, instead believing that the 'English', as an eminently sensible people, would undoubtedly negotiate some sort of terms for cessation of hostilities before it ever came to that.

The Battle of Britain is a great victory in terms of the morale boost it provided, but not much more than that in reality. Had the RAF lost, then Luftwaffe freedom to operate over the UK would have undoubtedly led to more widespread destruction and loss of life, and our supply chain would possibly have become even more strained than it did in the period after 1940, but it wasn't some sort of decisive moment that prevented German invasion, as that simply was not on the cards at any point, no matter what the public was being told at the time.

EmpressCixi · 20/12/2021 22:45

Depends what exactly you’re defining.

I’d say the three tsunamis that sunk Doggerland, separating Britain from just a knobby part of mainland Europe into a separate island would be literally the moment that created and defined Britain.

thatsallineed · 20/12/2021 22:48

The Magna Carta.

CheshireSplat · 20/12/2021 22:51

I read a book by Francis Pryor (maybe Britain AD) that argues against a Germanic invasion post fall of the Roman Empire. I just say this because a couple of posters have mentioned this. It was a convincing argument but I haven't looked at the opposing arguments .

blacksax · 20/12/2021 22:56

@VladmirsPoutine

Colonisation, enslavement and invasion of Africa. The brits should have stayed home.
What about the French, the Dutch, the Spanish and the Portuguese, among others? Presumably they should have stayed at home too.
EmpressCixi · 20/12/2021 23:12

@VladmirsPoutine

Colonisation, enslavement and invasion of Africa. The brits should have stayed home.
So should have the enslaving, invading and colonising Romans, Saxons, Vikings and Normans. There is nowhere on the planet that hasn’t been touched by enslavement, invasion or colonisation.
EngTech · 20/12/2021 23:17

1940

If a few youngsters had not done what they did, we would be speaking a different language now

Surmeslevres · 20/12/2021 23:34

The first and second world war.

I read a huge amount of British history and what I have learned has convinced me that Britain never really recovered from the two world wars.

SarahAndQuack · 20/12/2021 23:45

@EngTech

1940

If a few youngsters had not done what they did, we would be speaking a different language now

Hmm

I see someone is getting their history from "Tories' Own Ladybird Book of Propaganda'.

dreamingbohemian · 20/12/2021 23:55

What about the French, the Dutch, the Spanish and the Portuguese, among others? Presumably they should have stayed at home too.

Yes they should have. And? It's a thread about British history specifically.