Visa

[ParisSight]

I cannot find this information anywhere, can anyone help? Regarding the statement below, where it says 'a family of 5', what does that actually mean?

HOW MUCH MONEY DO I NEED TO HAVE IN THE BANK IN ORDER TO APPLY FOR RESIDENCY?
In the case of a family of 5, the primary claimant must have a bank balance of €19,625.48 or an annual salary equal to that amount. You need to pay the €12 application tax before your consultation. You will do this by filling up the 790 form on line, printing it out, and paying to a bank before you schedule your appointment.

I take it to mean 2 adults (mum & dad) and 3 children.

Other immigration websites suggest that this is the amount needed if you want to apply for residency for 4 family members, so including the main applicant it's a family of 5.
The amount goes up or down depending on the number of people.

Thanks both. It's the term 'family members' that I need clarification. They say you need proof, i.e. marriage and birth certificates. But what if the children are over 18?

If the children are over 18, they are adults in their own right and would not necessarily count towards family members unless they are in full time education.

@Unreasonabubble

If the children are over 18, they are adults in their own right and would not necessarily count towards family members unless they are in full time education.

They are not in education. Does that mean they can't be part of the 'family of 5'?

What sort of visa is it?

I think they should count as long as they still live at home and are dependent on you: www.gov.uk/uk-family-visa/child

It's for a family in the UK to move to live in Spain. Not joining a family member already there. I'm trying to find out what 'dependant' means for a child over 18. It's really not clear is it.

OK, so British rules are irrelevant.

What type of visa is it for Spain? Are any of you EU citizens? Are the children disabled? Do they work?

No it's not clear but, if they all live currently at home with you and are dependent on you for their home and well being, it might be a different story.

Why not contact the Spanish Embassy and see what they say?

I would suggest contacting the relevant Spanish consulate for information, but be aware they may take a while to get back to you. The whole process takes forever now

@Ellmaullmau

It is a long stay non lucrative visa. No EU citizens, no disabilities, children are not dependant in the legal sense I don't think but this is what I can't find out. They do have jobs but choose to live at home due to the high cost of renting/buying in the UK.

It's not me that's going, it's a family member. She is a single parent with 3 adult children who is going to buy a house in Spain with cash and move there to live very soon - she is planning to go house hunting next Spring. However, she will only have enough cash left over (about £22k) for one adult visa and she is going ahead on the basis of the statement in my OP - a visa for a 'family of 5'.

I am worried that she has misunderstood and that the adult children will not be able to go with her. This is what I am trying to find out.

Thank you so much to everyone who has offered suggestions so far. Unfortunately, I can't check with the embassy for her as she doesn't like me making any suggestions of caution as she sees this a negative and 'putting a downer on her dream'. I can't really talk to her about it any more as she gets cross with me but if I can find out for sure whether the children can or can't go, I will have one last attempt to explain that to her.

My biggest fear is that she buys the house in Spain and afterwards finds out that they can't all live there. That will be a worst case scenario.

On her own head be it then. Potentially expensive mistake to make.

Well, Spain actually considers adult children ‘dependants’ until the age of 26, IF their parents contribute to the national insurance and social taxes. I’m still classed as a dependant in my parents’ household but they both work and the only ‘perk’ I receive is free healthcare as long as I’m not in employment (or if I’m living abroad).

I don’t see how it’s going to work if the children are over 18, not in education (Spain will expect you to work if you’re not in education) and are not applying for their own visa.

They’ll be able to visit their mother for 90 days every 180, but they aren’t a ‘family of 5’.

@WeAreTheHeroes

On her own head be it then. Potentially expensive mistake to make.

I know! I can't believe she isn't researching this more. She is getting all her advice from the Estate Agent in Spain who is going to help her find a house. I have told her not to listen to them because they are just trying to make a sale and word for the vendor not her. But like I said, she gets annoyed with me and tells me she's got it all under control. She sent me that message in my OP as 'proof'.

@EileenGC would they class them as dependants if they are not Spanish citizens?

The earning bit is another problem. She says she is going to do airbnb but I'm guessing with a non lucrative visa you aren't allowed to earn?

Not an expert in this area, but I would be surprised if adult children who are not fully financially dependent would count - and I would also not expect they would be allowed to work in Spain as dependents on a non-lucrative visa. Also, I think you have to provide additional funds for each dependent so her 22K may not be enough.

Can you try to gently encourage her to get (well, apply for) the visa before she looks for property? Then if/when she doesn't get it she hasn't lost out as much financially and you're not the bad guy.

The additional funds for one child, the 22 year old, would be ok as their father will cover it and the other 2 might chose not to go anyway. So at the very least it will be her and one adult child. If the adult child can't go she will struggle because she also has some health issues. It all looks like a very bad decision but she is adamant she's going. She has already sold her house in the UK and moved into rented.

I think her EA is looking at very old information, about the pre-Brexit residency visa, not the post Brexit non-lucrative visa - here is the info she has, and the page itself says "data from April 2019" -

lifestylegroup.es/spanish-residency-certificate/

that site itself updates the information on

lifestylegroup.es/spanish_residency_british_citizen_uk_nationals_2021/. and mentions a couple needing E33k a year.

This form from the London Embassy site suggests that she alone needs around E2259/ £1900 a month, with each family member needing another 564E/£470 - so even if they did count as family, she would need around £3.3k a month or £40k for all 4 of them.

www.exteriores.gob.es/Consulados/LONDRES/en/Consulado/Documents/RES%20ES-EN.pdf

even this estate agency agrees! ;-)

valencia-property.com/new/2020/12/15/getting-residency-in-spain-for-brits-in-2021-post-brexit/

And she would need to show evidence of double that after a year, as the next 2 years application is done as one application.

It does sound like a bad idea in her circumstances.

Also, if the 22K is left over savings from the house sale rather than income per se - how would she renew the visa after the first year? Googling indicates she needs two years' income for that renewal.

So this is the application form for a non-lucrative visa and when asking about dependants it clearly states ‘children of education age’ - it uses the word escolarización which means 6-16yo.

extranjeros.inclusion.gob.es/ficheros/Modelos_solicitudes/mod_solicitudes2/01-Formulario_residencia_no_lucrativa.pdf

I haven’t actually read the whole decree on it but I can have a look. Would be surprised if over 16s are included as dependants - unless of course, there are disabilities which means the parent is also a full-time carer.

Forgot to add, non-lucrative means no work. Having an Airbnb business is work - you’d have to declare income and pay taxes - so of course she can’t do that herself.

My heart is sinking. I honestly don't think she can do it. Here is her plan. After costs for sale of her house and moving costs, she will have about £125k in cash. I know, it's no-where near enough. That is all she has, no other income, no other savings.

She will spend about £100k buying a house big enough for her and at least one adult child, with additional space from which to do airbnb. Her child/ren can help run the airbnb, do cleaning and airport runs. That's it - that's her plan.

She can't do it can she.

She hasn't realised she can't earn on a non lucrative visa. She hasn't realised that her or her offspring can't work as airport taxi drivers. She hasn't realised that she needs to show income to cover the first 3-5 years, not just savings. She hasn't realised that her child may not be included in a family visa. She hasn't realised that after one year, she will need to show £44k in her bank in order to apply for a 2 year visa. She knows none of this. I know more about it than her and I'm not the one going!

My only hope is to persuade her to secure the visa before buying the house.

www.boe.es/eli/es/lo/2000/01/11/4/con

This is the law by which visas and residency permits are regulated. It says, twice, that children over 18 will NOT be included on their parents’ visas unless they have ‘physical or mental disabilities which prevent them from living an independent life’ or they can provide proof of their own income and savings which would entitle them to their own visa.

Unfortunately since brexit it’s not as easy as just packing up and moving there and running an Airbnb.

She’s deluded. The estate agent is telling her this is possible because they want to sell the property. Good luck to her (and you when she realises and comes crying for help!)…

My only hope is to persuade her to secure the visa before buying the house.

She’s also much more likely to secure this when she still has £125k after the house sale, instead of ‘just about enough’ and no set income, when the authorities issuing visas will be a bit more skeptics about what happens in 12 months’ time when the visa needs renewing.

Portugal has a much lower income requirement but all the other issues I think would be the same.