Looks / attractiveness and work

[xmasfairy21]

Hi
A conversation I was having with a more senior
Woman I work with went like this:

The more attractive people do better regardless of ability due to beauty effect

Make the most of whatever you have as a woman as men make most decisions and want to be surrounded by attractive women

Up to a certain age women can use this but then reverses or stops post menopause and same men will focus on younger women

What do other people think. I work for a big organisation and guess I was a bit shocked. But she said lots of research. Said you could guess how well people would do from junior grades by including looks as well as personality & skill.

Thoughts ??

@maofteens

Yes there are loads of studies that suggest this, but I would not say regardless of skill. But put two equally skilled and experienced people and it is human nature to go with the more attractive candidate. This applies to men too. And it is definitely harder for the post 50s to get a job - men and women. Don't know why you are shocked it seems obvious to me, though some of her other suggestions I would put less weight to.

Agree the person has to have the skill. And yes well groomed women, like well groomed men , will be viewed more favourably on a like for like basis.

It’s about professional image irrelevant of gender or level of attractiveness,

My friend works with a woman who is being moved sideways . She strongly suspects that the woman’s appearance has something to do with it but no one would ever admit to it.

She has long grey hair which looks like it’s not ever seen a brush, bad body odour, is morbidly obese, and dresses in odd flowing clothes with marks on them, Birkenstocks and ankle socks, but she’s very capable however, the company feel uncomfortable when she meets clients and represents them to the public. It would be the same if it was a man.

The more senior you get, the more you become the face of the company, either to more junior staff or outside parties. And if you don’t look well groomed and professional it will have an impact on your ability to proceed.

But that’s irrelevant of gender, and any woman who makes it to senior level has without a shadow of a doubt done it on skill, ability and hard work. Irrelevant of her perceived attractiveness. But that doesn’t mean how you present youtself is irrelevant. It is relevant for both genders and pretty much always has been in most industries.

I think it’s been studied before - also that we are more likely to trust those who are attractive over those who aren’t.

I think it also probably has a lot to do with confidence and charisma. Someone who thinks they are attractive and likes how they look are less likely to feel nervous and might come across better in interview situations than someone who is very self conscious. So maybe more to do with perception of good looks than actual good looks. Lots of people are actually very pretty but you never notice because they are so self conscious and hide themselves away/don’t make the best of themselves, whereas someone who thinks they are attractive is possibly more likely to take care of themselves and present themselves confidently.

@Footprintsonthemoon1

I'll be honest, and may NC after. I've definitely used looks and a little flirting to help me open doors or get on the right side of people but I've always had the brains to keep me where I want to be. I wouldn't have lasted long without the brains

Successful women I know are slim and pretty but then so are lots of unsuccessful (depending how you look at it) women I know to

I would think for a big job or promotion then ‘flirting’ would actually have the opposite of the desired effect. I would think someone flirting in an interview would come across unprofessional and a bit odd rather than put together and the type of person I’d want working with me. Surely you’re opening the wrong doors by presenting yourself in that way?

It's true like thin privilege is true.

Some organisations it's worse than others. I've worked in the same sector with the public sector one organisation all the directors were thin attractive show ponies who looks beautiful and young and carried mulberry handbags. In current organisation similar but less on the beautiful and more on the grooming and well turned and there is a certain aesthetic and expecting of heels and pencil skirts.

I aim to look plump side of average, showered, groomed and neat. (On a good day- bad day is fat, drawn and disheveled.)

Isn’t it similar that tall men (statistically) do better than short men?

The 'tall people do better than short people' is related to another statistic, 'well qualified people do better than badly qualified people'. Qualification level, height and indeed looks are all linked to class, particularly when you remember these oft repeated statistics are based on historical data. Growing up in a middle class household in mid 20th century with a plentiful food supply, lots of opportunities to do sport, and having an enriched educational experience (thanks to private education) obviously resulted in a more successful career than if you grew up short of good food, had no organised activities as a child, and left school at 14 with no qualifications.

In the modern day this doesn't mean you'll get to the top just by being pretty, but just that on average those in professional careers will look better and be taller than the average of those doing NMW jobs.

Promotion and progression rarely just 'happen' without active pursuit, it takes a desire to better your situation and a confidence that you can achieve it. These exact same traits tend to define attractiveness (within the bounds set by genetics). If you have the drive, ambition and confidence to make the best of yourself then you are likely to make yourself slim and fit, dress well and look good. If you are a reclusive comfort eater with a lack of confidence that will manifest itself in both your career success and your appearance.

I'm sure genetic advantage plays a part but I think more importantly the character traits that make someone maximise their genetic attractiveness potential also tend to make them maximise their career progression. A correlation but not necessarily a causation.

I've noticed a few things about this :

Men prefer attractive women. And 99% of the time if they have an opportunity to sleep with a good looking woman, they will do.

Men who are taller do better.

Men can be less skilled than women but get higher salaries and different job titles (this is a huge thing)

Expectations of women are higher in regards to both looks AND talent.

If you're raised in a household with money, chances are you'll be taller, better educated and better fed. Leading to a better career, better looking and better health.

Actually, when I was a grad in sales and trading ( bank) I found that people would talk more to the attractive girls, but they would also somehow assume they were stupid.. I think on the whole it worked against you to be a good looking junior female!

I think it actually hurt my career more than helped tbh. I was bullied relentlessly because I was slimmer than the other staff. I was groped at another job then not taken seriously when I complained. I've had so many sexist comments about my appearance I could fill a book.

I think you need to be well groomed and well put together rather than naturally beautiful. Helen Rose and Anne Boden are two of the most powerful women in banking, and neither of them are thin or jaw droppingly good looking, but they are very well put together.

Sallie Krawcheck is pretty skinny and attractive, as is Jane Fraser (possibly the most powerful woman in banking?) but I doubt it's their looks alone that got them far ahead.

Side note: Sallie Krawcheck's also talked a lot about her husband running off with her best friend, leaving her alone with two small children, and almost wrecking her career in the process.

I'm sure it's true in some places, but the best bosses of my life have been fat, weirdly dressed women. I actually think it's the other way around. I've twice had good looking male bosses and they were among the worst people I've ever met. I think some men get ahead on a sort of male charisma, way ahead of their competence level.

In my industry brains definitely more important than beauty. Sometimes I think being very beautiful means people take you less seriously.

I have found this to be true in my experience. That said it can also have the opposite effect - as in people are more receptive and helpful because they find you beautiful but then they also underestimate you. Wasn't there a woman who once went on telly to discuss how her beauty made other women so jealous they'd try to sabotage her where ever they could? That was most odd.

I think it can be a disadvantage. When a beautiful colleague joined our hospital, the talk of the consultants' corridor was not of her skills and qualifications, but of how hot she was. She's very competent but there was resistance to take her seriously.

Well, it does you no harm to be attractive but if you want to hold on to your role and have respect i think attractive women set out not to capitalise on their looks. They're always 'there' though.

Two absolutely beautiful young women started my work about two years ago. They're equally as attractive but after the passing of two years, it's very clear that their reputations at work are very different. So while being attractive is a lovely mask, it's only going to get you so far. I don't mean one has a bad reputation, I just mean, one is clearly heading places.

I'm a senior director and fat, although if it weren't for being a chubber I'd be considered conventionally nice looking and I feel that I dress my 15 stone appropriately. But I joined virtually a "start-up" where the CEO had only met me over Teams, and the rest of our conversations were by phone.

He comes from a culture where intelligence, presentability, personability and tact are king - he's a millionaire operating multiple businesses, he deals with his own house keeping staff and his millionaire banker friends with the same kindness and I've never heard him say a bad word about anybody.

I worry that I won't be taken seriously being fat (I am losing weight), but on the other hand maybe it makes me more approachable? I don't know.

Your colleague is right however disappointing that may be. It's important to always make the best of yourself whether that's your appearance or how you work and network etc if you want to get on and succeed.

To some extent it applies to men too. If you look at successful people the vast majority of them are pretty neat and tidy.

I went for a job interview at a big City firm in my 20's. A long time ago They wanted pretty girls about the place and compared it to being like having nice curtains. Horrendous looking back, but that's how it was. I did get the job, but didn't go there, I wasn't sure I could do the stepford wife act they appeared to be after.

I think there are of course cases where men & women advanced more quickly because of their looks.

However, I believe that many 'attractive' people are so because they are outgoing, friendly, confident, funny, smart etc. I think these traits are almost always an advantage when progressing a career.

I also think that often (not always) the most capable, together, motivated, conscientious people tend to also be well groomed (which can equate to attractiveness).

In a nutshell, although there may be a correlation between attractiveness and success, I don't think it's necessarily causal.

@JaninaDuszejko

Isn’t it similar that tall men (statistically) do better than short men?

The 'tall people do better than short people' is related to another statistic, 'well qualified people do better than badly qualified people'. Qualification level, height and indeed looks are all linked to class, particularly when you remember these oft repeated statistics are based on historical data. Growing up in a middle class household in mid 20th century with a plentiful food supply, lots of opportunities to do sport, and having an enriched educational experience (thanks to private education) obviously resulted in a more successful career than if you grew up short of good food, had no organised activities as a child, and left school at 14 with no qualifications.

In the modern day this doesn't mean you'll get to the top just by being pretty, but just that on average those in professional careers will look better and be taller than the average of those doing NMW jobs.

Insightful post.

I think a lot of posts here have confused presentability with looks.

Attractiveness is a package though. Even many celebrities who are ‘ordinary looking’ are attractive when on stage and it’s not necessarily to do with how slim you are either. Competence and confidence is very attractive.

As pp said however ‘unattractiveness’ that causes low self-esteem is a barrier to success but it’s the latter that’s the issue.

Having said that - I work in tech where attractiveness isn’t a big deal - it’s about knowing your stuff. People remember your points and voice rather than your face so if you don’t sound sure, or flake that’s likely to have a worse impact

Also because even in meetings people are too busy looking at screens and diamgrams to even notice faces 😂😂😂

My boss has a meme face though and it’s hilarious

Actually @TractorAndHeadphones I think I'm Teams / zoom / wfh world faces are even more
Important as you're literally staring at just video cam faces in meetings rather than at a distance in a room or on the phone

So hair face skin are really the focus rather than outfit, prescience. Body language, height ?