Informal chat about sickness now formal...advise needed please!

[Crazyhouse123]

Ok so is long sorry but I want to try and get as much information in as I can!

In Jan 2020 I was offered a part time job in a local hospital admin...it's in a branch of the NHS but not the main NHS.

I started March 2020, pandemic hit, I went full time and was then seconded to another central team to support a project and worked literally 7 days a week 12 to 14 hours a day supporting this... from home for around 6 weeks. I passed my probation with flying colours and in October 2020 went for, and got, a job in the central team supporting health staff nationally. WFH position.

I was, and am, excellent at my job. It's level 1 banding (slightly different to NHS but band 3 equivalent) and suited me as I was also studying for my masters. Level and salary were the same as I was on but more opportunities for promotion.

I switched Uni in September 2020 and started again (course and pandemic meant a better choice for me) so my MA lasted 2 years instead of the 1 expected. My new role was shifts and I was also managing my kids, all of whom have been diagnosed or who are currently being assessed for asd and adhd at varying levels. My dp works long hours s/e and was working even more once lockdown lifted as there was so much work and everything fell onto me.

In April I had surgery on my sinuses, after this had been delayed due to the pandemic. Prior to this my manager left to another employer and I went for an interview at her new employer and got the job...same as I was doing but slightly more money and less pressure. I did not get on there...I didn't know why at the time, hindsight is a wonderful thing!, my exit interview with my old employer took place after I had started there due to the time off I had had for the surgery. They said they would have me back, and when I said I may be interested they bit my hand off and I was starting back there within 3 months of leaving.

So... July ( a month after I started back) I was diagnosed with adhd. Long process and answered a million questions. I had a precbooked week off when my MA dissertation was due shortly afterwards and fell to pieces with anxiety and stress. I've always been able to cope and suddenly I couldn't. On top of the surgery recovery, starting hrt and crippling migraines (no doubt not helped by all of the above!) I ended up taking a month off with stress.

Because I was a re-starter I had to undertake my 3 months probation again. I wasn't overly impressed with this as they had been desperate to have me back but accepted it as a requirement without complain obviously! I took a month off and they have extended my probation by 3 months. This in itself, while not ideal, I accepted...i would have rather a month to just make up the time I had off but HR insisted on 3 months. All this was through my manager HR never spoke to me directly.

I was also not entitled to full pay on sick leave, as my contract of employment was new and I needed to be there for a year. My pay at the end of August was full pay as I was off sick after the payroll cut off. At the end of September they paid me SSP for the whole of September (not technically correct as I returned mid September) but they also deducted half of my pay for August in one go, with no notice and replaced it with SSP. So I was paid at the end of September a grand total of just over £10. With no notice. Their payroll team just said it will be sorted October HR said they couldn't do anything.

You can imagine the stress and worry this caused. I ended up leaving work early one day the following week with a migraine. So worried about my time off sick I went back too early and ended up taking the Friday off too and ended up on antibiotics for a sinus infection (saw my consultant the following week and I have ongoing scar tissue weeping so they are keeping an eye on this).

My manager advised that I would need a sickness review with herself and HR. OK I figured that's ok, she assured me it isn't a formal warning or anything just a chat, but I have had the letter this morning and been advised to have representation and all of my sicknesses are down as migraines which is quite clearly not the case. Her line manager will also be present.

I am so unbelievably upset, anxious and stressed about this now. I have been diagnosed with a disability that has held me back my entire life. They talked to me about this and agreed a plan to help me manage my working day (role had changed since I was here at the beginning of the year and is just one task all day long most days they agreed to split my tasks 50/50 this just hasn't happened despite me asking again a couple of times). My 121's with my manager are often late, she spends the whole time answering queries on the support feed and she seems to tell me one thing and either forget to do anything to support me or just do something else. I am excellent at my job still despite all this, scoring 99% average in my KPI's for Oct for instance. I really do like my manager but don't think she gets that I have a disability and is old school as far as MH is concerned.

Please help...any advise would be gratefully received. I know that this is all very outing but I don't believe there is anything that shouldn't be there. I am going to see about joining a union today.

Please let me add...I'm not asking for any of this to be ignored. I know what it is and I am quite prepared to take it all on the chin and knuckle down to get through this.

My issue is that I was told it was an informal chat but have had an official formal notice which I was specifically told it wouldn't be. The notice isn't even correct with the details. I have been waiting for an OH review since September and this has finally been scheduled for next week.

I do not expect my employer to treat me with kid gloves I am no better or worse that anyone else in my team and I am not irreplaceable by any means.

My KPI's are excellent. My timekeeping is excellent.

@Crazyhouse123

Please let me add...I'm not asking for any of this to be ignored. I know what it is and I am quite prepared to take it all on the chin and knuckle down to get through this.

My issue is that I was told it was an informal chat but have had an official formal notice which I was specifically told it wouldn't be. The notice isn't even correct with the details. I have been waiting for an OH review since September and this has finally been scheduled for next week.

I do not expect my employer to treat me with kid gloves I am no better or worse that anyone else in my team and I am not irreplaceable by any means.

My KPI's are excellent. My timekeeping is excellent.

Have you specifically asked your manager why? A lot of times managers promise not to formally report things but something else triggers a formal review anyway. In this case looks like some automated system Do you think she doesn’t have your back?

Maybe talk to ACAS, but I think I would respond to HR and your manager asking for clarification on whether it's an informal chat or a formal one. Remind them that you were specifically told it would be informal. Point out that they have the details of your disability/sickness incorrect.

The 50 50 split of work and your manager not paying proper attention in 121's; I'd worry about those a little way down the line.

Maybe the letter only says about you being off with migraines as the month you had off with stress is recorded differently as it's related to your ADHD. I'd ask your manager to clarify which absences have triggered this meeting and for them to give you a copy of your sickness self-certificates if they have not been recorded correctly. I'd also ask why this is a formal meeting if you haven't had an informal one yet

I would reply in writing ensuring every inaccurate point on the letter is corrected.
Dear x, your letter regarding my absences shows some inaccuracies. I have always been completely honest about my absences so I am not sure how these errors came about, but could you please correct them in the system prior to meeting with me. Let me know if this means you would need to reschedule.

Event: x system says: y. What it should say: bla bla.
Evidence- at the time I discussed it with X y and z.

It should also be clear on my record that I have been diagnosed with adhd. I’ve informed my manager at date x and we agreed on these adjustments:
However, none of these agreed adjustments have yet been put in place, so while I am still performing well with my October kpis of 95% as clear evidence of that, it’s been very stressful managing in the absence of the agreed adjustments.

I would also like to note that payroll updated all my pay during sick leave and retroactively docked it, so that without notice I was paid £10 for my entire monthly salary for October. I’m sure you can understand this is an extremely stressful thing to happen for most people, and I wasn’t aware it was allowed to dock pay all at once for that, much less with no notice.
Please let me know how I can verify my record with HR is up to date for all these points.

I’d send that as it highlights both that there are errors on their side and that you will be quite prepared to push back. If the sickness meeting comes with a performance warning or any hint thereof, I would say I believe a performance warning is inappropriate when you haven’t yet made the agreed reasonable adjustments for my conditions, and I would also say I don’t understand the basis for one given my kpi performance, so I feel I have to challenge that.

Yes OP good points make sure you have formal evidence of you meeting your performance targets!

1. Write a polite letter back correcting the factual inaccuracies, do not add any other comments about anything. Take a copy of the letter to the meeting.
2. Join the TU - they may not help this time but in place should a next time occur.
3. Ask TU to accompany you to meeting, if the can’t/won’t ask a colleague.
4. Attend meeting and listen to what they say, answer questions honestly. Ask TU rep/colleague to take notes of the meeting. Ask for reasonable adjustments and possibly referral to OH.
5. As you are on extended probation they may move to dismiss but might extend probation to 9 months with a clear target of sick absence.

With regard to pay where a change in pay is notified after payroll close and an overpayment occurs this is normally recovered in full from next months salary.

5. As you are on extended probation they may move to dismiss but might extend probation to 9 months with a clear target of sick absence.
@Alpinechalet don’t you think it very dodgy to comment on an employees sick absences when you have failed to make agreed adjustments for her diagnosed condition? I would expect that to be grievance worthy/ relevant in a constructive dismissal argument

It seems

You have been employed for less than 2 years (more protection after 2 years)

You have taken approx 18% time off sick

Of course your employer will be discussing your sickness

So 26 and a half days in 142 days

Assuming that you work five days a week, it’s more like 26.5 days of illness out of approx 100 working days so is quite significant levels of absence.

How many of those days (since June) have been due to your disability?

@timeisnotaline

5. As you are on extended probation they may move to dismiss but might extend probation to 9 months with a clear target of sick absence. *@Alpinechalet* don’t you think it very dodgy to comment on an employees sick absences when you have failed to make agreed adjustments for her diagnosed condition? I would expect that to be grievance worthy/ relevant in a constructive dismissal argument

I am not the OPs employer I am just stating what might happen.

As the OP has only been employed for 142 days during current employment and had a significant proportion of that as sick absence, an employer may use a shortened but legal process to terminate during extended probation period. In my experience employees who have a lot of sick absence during probation period frequently go on to have higher levels of sick absence than the norm. Some, like the OP, have bad luck during probation and then revert to minimal absences. Employers are more likely to terminate early rather than take the risk.

You are correct reasonable adjustments should be put in place but sometimes an employer takes a risk as they would rather terminate early. This is why I suggested they may extend probation to 9 months as then employer has a chance to put in reasonable adjustments. If sick absence continues the then follow a fair process to dismiss.

At my work this meeting would be automactically triggered by three instances of absence in six months. A few years ago I had to go home at lunchtime with a migraine, then got an absolutely stinking cold a couple of months later, had two days off, went back, then actually wasn't well enough so was off again the next day. Cue meeting. My manager spoke to HR and said there was no need to have the meeting and it was abandoned. (Also gave me a row for coming back to work still sick!)

You won't be able to access a union if you aren't in one I don't think as this is an "existing issue" but in my place you could bring a trusted colleague along to the meeting. It's likely the meeting will just be finding out how the organisation can support you though.

@Cr0ssingPathways5

It seems

You have been employed for less than 2 years (more protection after 2 years)

You have taken approx 18% time off sick

Of course your employer will be discussing your sickness

Sure, but the problem is she was told it was one thing (informal chat) and has now been informed it's another (formal, requiring representation and her line manager being present.) And they have the details of her sickness wrong. None of this makes me think they're going about it very well, even though I don't disagree that some sort of discussion is needed.

You’ve been off sick for 25% of the time you’ve been back. I’m not surprised that it’s triggered a formal review and probation extension.

I would just fully cooperate with the process they need to follow

I think if you take a step back you can see why this review has been triggered op, as unfortunate and unavoidable as it is, you’re running at pretty much a twenty percent absence rate due to Ill health.

I am guessing because you were not diagnosed you didn’t declare your disability when re employed and they had as such no way to know that you were not capable of the role they offered and would need support to be able to do it.

I think it’s a good thing they have suggested you take in representation. They will need to look at the reasonableness of your requests to be able to support you to perform the role and what adjustments you need. They will also need to look at your ability to attend your work due to mental health issues on top of this, plus physical health ones such as your migraines.

Overall a very difficult situation for both sides, but they are handling it correctly. Of course they need to correct the reason for your absences, but this is the only correction required.

If you can't have union representation , take a friend who will not be frightened of being in an interview. Make a note of all of the inaccuracies and ensure that they are discussed and that your sick record will be amended. I doubt that any real action will be taken as you have been told that this is informal. If the interview is moved into formal or any formal action is taken then ask them to stop because they have exceeded what they set out to do and you should be allowed time to consider what is going on and what may or may not happen. I have done a number of these and it was solely to ensure that the individual understood that there was management concern about sick absence and to offer support and advice with a view to improved attendance as the end result.

@BubblesThaDragoon

Sorry this is happening OP. I would join a union if you aren’t already in one and request representation - some you need to be a member prior to the issue others will help straight away because a lot of people are having issues with employment and COVID.

If that fails - I would approach ACAS for advice and bring any medical letters as evidence to the meeting. I’d also be looking up the equality at work act, as having a disability is a protected characteristic and legally your employer must make reasonable adjustments if required. I’d quote the legislation in the meeting and make suggestions you feel would constitute reasonable adjustments.

www.gov.uk/guidance/equality-act-2010-guidance

www.acas.org.uk/discrimination-and-the-law

Good luck OP I’ve been there with a pervious employer who attempted to manage me out because of absences due to epilepsy - they failed

Agree completely with this great advice, ACAS are fantastic help. Get a file together with all your documentation in regarding your diagnosis and your surgery, also get medical notes from your GP, they provide them free now, usually on a disc and you can get not only your GP surgery notes, but also any hospital notes and imaging done, such as x-rays and scans, you have to allow them at least a month to provide them.

I spent many years working in law and I always get things prepared, they may not be required but if they are, you will be one step ahead.

Good luck!

@Flipflopblowout

If you can't have union representation , take a friend who will not be frightened of being in an interview. Make a note of all of the inaccuracies and ensure that they are discussed and that your sick record will be amended. I doubt that any real action will be taken as you have been told that this is informal. If the interview is moved into formal or any formal action is taken then ask them to stop because they have exceeded what they set out to do and you should be allowed time to consider what is going on and what may or may not happen. I have done a number of these and it was solely to ensure that the individual understood that there was management concern about sick absence and to offer support and advice with a view to improved attendance as the end result.

No, I think the OP needs clarity BEFORE the meeting on the formal/informal thing; she was told one thing but has now received a letter saying it will be formal, so she has no excuse (from their point of view) for going into the meeting not knowing this.

Oh and just one other thing, make sure all contact you have with HR etc in relation to this is in writing, either the old fashioned way or via email and if any telephone contact takes place, take contemporaneous notes.

They do that where I work. If you are overpaid they just take it out at the next pay packet.
Also they use a calculation of the amount of days you’ve had off x the amount to occupancies.
So if you had 26.5 days of but in 5 different times it will report a sickness factor of 160ish. This is to pick up people that have say every other Friday off.
This meeting would have been triggered by above and that’s why it’s now formal.
Being the nhs and the fact you now have a disability they probably want to see how they can help you.
But take someone with you they are only their to make notes they can’t join in the conversation but they can talk to you if they have any input.

I send out meeting invites for things like this all the time in work. Just because they have sent you an "official" invite to a meeting does not make it a formal meeting. Its simply a trackable way of recording the invitation and recording that the meeting will occur. It just displays that things were done correctly and by the book, should it ever need to be reviewed down the line (aka unfair dismissal claim etc).

This will be the informal chat to decide whether anything formal needs to occur next. It's a fact finding mission, to hear your side of the story for the dates/causes of sickness. They will ask about potential for on-going absence and how they can assist you with making work more manageable to handle the illness. Your ADHD doesnt sound like an actual factor here, as far as I can read. It doesnt sound like you were absent for anything ADHD related so I dont understand why its being brought up or why people are bandying it about as discrimination. Seems like a separate issue that you are mixing in unnecessarily. After the fact finding mission, they will say they will consider their next steps and be in touch. You'll likely hear back within 2-5 working days about next stages.

Its likely that the next stage will be a formal performance review or extension of probationary period. That kind of thing will be recorded officially and noted on your employment record for a set period of time.
As mentioned above, they may opt to utilise the probationary period and dismiss you, so be prepared for that possibility.

Can you claim for adjustments for a disability which has existed all along (albeit undiagnosed) when you were managing your job perfectly well up to the diagnosis and nothing about your disability has changed? I'm not sure.

It doesn't seem that any of the absences are related to the ADHD here.

Thank you all so much for your replies. They are all really useful and it is so good ti read all perspectives.

I am going to reply to the letter as per the pp's earlier, asking them to correct the errors in the letter and asking if they can confirm if this is a formal meeting or if, as I was advised, it is merely an informal check to ensure that there is nothing else going on.

I have someone I get on with really well in another team, she is at a higher level than me so I will ask her if she is free.

I will keep you posted! Thank you again all of you!