ADHD 11 year old has been bullying/alienating friends

[SquarePeggyLeggy]

Posting here as well as SN.

I am feeling exhausted and increasingly depressed about my ADHD son. I really love him, but raising him is proving pretty joyless and exhausting.

We moved to a lovely new village a few months ago, some of his school friends live nearby, they came to collect him and rode bikes, went to play, it was all fantastic and a much needed change (previously we lived in the large town, and couldn’t do any of this).

Everything was fine for several weeks, until they stopped coming around. One of them told him: “I have to be honest, I don’t want to be your friend”. My son was baffled as to why.

But he still played online with a couple of them. Then one of them (the kid) contacted us to tell us our son had been bullying and pushing him into buying things for him. We had him apologise and banned him for several weeks. They became friends and started playing again, until last night when the friend said he didn’t want to be friends again, and his father told him to stay away from our son. We contacted the man and he said our son has been really inappropriate with his, saying sexual stuff, making strange noises (he has tics) and calling other kids “losers” and that he felt really uncomfortable around him.

This has happened more than once, parents telling us our son is a problem or upsetting theirs. There’s a pattern where he makes a friend, they play several times, and then he alienates them, and sometimes hear from the parents.

He’s very dishonest about this and flat out denies it, but as it’s now several similar reports, it’s obvious that our son is acting inappropriately, making kids uncomfortable or pushing them around (not physically) and then lying about it. He just cannot seem to be a good friend. We have tried so hard, he has so much of our love and attention, but he is so low on empathy and can be cruel as a result of his thoughtlessness. He is very, very negative, suspicious of everyone’s intentions and makes mean and hurtful comments and is selfish and manipulative. It breaks my heart to say this, but it’s true. He is clever and interesting and kind to animals and his baby sister, but seems to have no idea when he’s upsetting people and is unmoved when he does, and doesn’t learn from it.

He also has low self esteem.

He is medicated, sees a psychologist, we talk constantly with him, I don’t know what else to do. I feel so concerned for his future. All of the parents are close and talk, I know my son is now pegged as the weirdo bully, and it impacts my other children because they don’t want to associate with us as a result. It’s impacting all of us.

He was only officially diagnosed last year, I’m still learning, can this diagnosis explain what’s happening? Is it something else, should I dig deeper? I feel like his behaviour is that of a traumatised child with a difficult home life, but we don’t have that at all. He is otherwise very healthy, we try to involve him in activities, but something always goes wrong, he can’t do team sports because of the poor way he treats his team mates (getting really angry with them when they make mistakes etc).

It feels so easy, just be nice! Just be nice to people! But he just literally cannot be nice. If he is nice, it’s because he wants something, for example he’ll give me a compliment, then ask for money immediately after.

I don’t know what I want. Can anyone relate? Is the future bleak? Can this be helped and how? I don’t see much evidence he think positively about anything or cares about other people at all. He loves the dog and the baby, but is too rough on occasion when he plays. He also talks very loudly and constantly interrupts. None of these traits are something others enjoy being around. How can we help him?

I hope you find some help too, I am lying awake at night worried about it. How will he ever find his way?

I'm wondering if a personality disorder might fit better although I have no idea if they're present in children? It's the lack of empathy that stands out, and the not learning from past behaviour. I think it's a really tough situation. I think you're on the right track being firm with him and not letting him unsupervised with others. I would seek diagnosis and therapy but equally, as you're saying, he needs to understand and take responsibility that he can't behave that way, whatever his issues.

Why wouldn’t you want the school involved?

The sexually inappropriate comments sound very concerning. Could he have seen/heard things online himself?

You say it’s impulse control and then say he picks and chooses when he makes the sexual comments and is capable of lying about them and/or blaming others for being ‘too sensitive’ which doesn’t seem quite consistent?

It does sound incredibly hard and I’m sorry. Really good you’re facing up to this and trying to get him the right help, but surely part of this is school and psychologist and everyone having the full picture about how he’s behaving and what the challenges are?

My DS has recently been diagnosed with ADHD aged 10. A few thoughts that struck me:

• you say he's medicated. As a PP said, are you happy that you've actually titrated to the maximum dose he can manage, so that it's achieving as much effect on his impulse control as it poss can?
• you mention a psychologist is in the picture, but you don't mention what they think about this behaviour...you sound a bit unsupported by them.
• is anyone looking at this behaviour from a psychotherapeutic perspective? It might be the ADHD on its own causing it, but I certainly find with my DS that he can default to showing me his feelings through behaviour rather than words. It's hard having ADHD when your friends don't - is you DS able to articulate that to you, and are you able to sit with that difficult feeling for him (I'm not suggesting you're not, I'm just wondering...). I'd try to dig a bit deeper into seeing whether some of the behaviour is ADHD but some is also a metaphor for some other feelings... if some is a metaphor, you're probably not going to make progress by just focusing with him on what he should do with friends, as you won't have got to the real issue. You mention that the behaviour is like a traumatised child - I think that's really observant and telling. Rather than pushing that down with the happy home stuff, I'd explore that further....my other child has huge trauma from chronic medical issues, and much of that comes out (only at home) as seeming like really not a nice person. So don't dismiss that it could be coming from some really difficult feelings....

Sorry, on my titration point - I've found the interruptions are one of the key signs of meds kicking in/fading. You say he still interrupts all the time... again, are you happy the meds level is sufficient, as that doesn't sound to be controlling symptoms?

@Unsureschool

I'm wondering if a personality disorder might fit better although I have no idea if they're present in children? It's the lack of empathy that stands out, and the not learning from past behaviour. I think it's a really tough situation. I think you're on the right track being firm with him and not letting him unsupervised with others. I would seek diagnosis and therapy but equally, as you're saying, he needs to understand and take responsibility that he can't behave that way, whatever his issues.

He's far too young to be diagnosed with a personality disorder.

I work in CAMHS. There does appear to be more than ADHD from what you have described

Yeah sorry, i don't know what I'm talking about really. I just didn't want to say the word psychopath as it's obviously not appropriate for a child.

I don’t think he’s a psychopath. He is kind to babies and animals.
He said he doesn’t notice when people are upset.

Bear in mind what he says to you may not be 100% accurate because he might be hiding things from you.

I would actually get the school involved and ask for help in trying to manage friendships.

Involving the school might help though, they can help him with socialising at school and explaining behaviour to the other children. Do bear in mind that the other children might have their own issues too and school will be aware of that.

In your shoes I would go back to the GP and ask to be referred back to the team that diagnosed him and request additional screenings and support. I also think screening for ASD would be worthwhile and agree with another poster he’s far too young to be diagnosed with any kind of personality disorder. I also wonder whether a special school might be a more suitable setting for him but I am well aware that depends on provision in your area. You could also request an EHCP assessment via school or via council and see if that leads anywhere. I’m not saying all this to depress you - more to encourage you to seek out support- so you and the family are not dealing with this on your own.

My child has ADHD and friendships are difficult.

We've found friendships on a 1 to 1 basis work best. In groups the need to show off to try to be popular overtakes and the impulse control goes out the window.

Activities like Scouts work better than team sports for us. Scouts are more accepting of SEN and the active nature of the group plus adult supervision is a good combination.

It's very difficult though. Our child has had a lot of different, short term friendships that are very intense and then usually end with a falling out.

She has also gone through a phase where they've been drawn to the excitement of the generally less desirable groups of kids. Perhaps because their social skills are also lacking and it's easier to join in stupid behaviour and making nasty comments to each other and other people. We've had a extremely difficult summer because of this.

She won't take advice as opposition kicks in immediately. She does now learn from experience though (albeit not very quickly) and has thankfully worked out that the summer group of "friends" were not really friendly at all.

It's very very tough. All I can suggest is constant gentle guidance, explaining to parents that he has ADHD and struggles socially so may make mistakes - to be honest the ones that keep complaining or pointing out mistakes probably aren't people you or your son need around. Their complaints aren't going to magically cure his ADHD.

I haven’t been very happy with his paediatrician, I want to have him reassessed. He has one tablet in the morning, I know there’s medication he can have to get him through the afternoon, but his sleep is already so bad.

What dose is the morning tablet? And is it concerta (slow release)?

Ah, sorry, just re-read - so he's only medicated in the morning? It doesn't always affect sleep; my DS is medicated morning and lunchtime, and it's not had any impact. Apologies if it's something you've already tried, it's not clear from your post...

Sorry to hear things are tough for you all. Alot of what has been said resonates as Dd has ADHD too. Could your DS have melatonin at night to help his sleep?

He has melatonin at night and 20mg vyanese in the morning. It’s worn off by about 2pm, evident from home school during lockdown. But it suppresses his appetite. He has lost a lot of weight.
I didn’t think the medication was helping all that much, but we gave him a medication break over the weekend and he was hyper. Could not stop yelling and making noises, couldn’t finish a task, jumping on everything, getting right up in everyone’s face, constant interruptions. So much worse without it than what he was even before we started it six months ago. So it does work.
The sleep problems predate the medication and have since he was a baby.

I should also add, the tics are much worse without medication.

Have any adults with adhd experienced this as children and then found a way to cope and manage and had a functional and happy adulthood? What helped, if so?
No, I do not feel supported by a team, we don’t have one. The school requested assessment, the psychologist they recommended to do the assessment was dreadful, but did it. The paediatrician doesn’t seem to think it’s severe and (I do, he was having a good day when we last saw her) and is hesitant to medicate (I think she thinks I’m hysterical), and the psychologist is good, I found her privately and she’s just going off the diagnosis. He is refusing to talk to her now, and I felt confident as did she that she’d be able to overcome that in the session, but last week he refused to talk much at all.
I want to start all over again but anyone with a good reputation has closed books.

It feels as though it’s dramatically worsened.
Last night I told him, “we’re just trying to help you, we want you to be able to find living in the world easier”. He said: “you should have birthed a different son then, you must have done something wrong when you were pregnant”.

And the feedback from the school varies grade by grade. They’ll one year say he’s great and doesn’t give any signs of any difficulty and then the next say that he can’t stay in the class unless we have him treated because he’s so clearly got issues. And then the year has been so disrupted with Covid, the teachers are just drowning, I feel.

Having had a diagnosis of ADHD, Aspergers and autism. I understand how your son feels and his difficulties in socialising. Strange as it seems he may be doing these things as a form of self preservation in that he may feel that his friends will eventually not want to be friends, so in his rationale, it probably makes perfect sense to get rid of them first. Hence how he is behaving.

As others have said please don't think this is how he will be for ever, he won't. As he goes through life he will learn various coping mechanisms and will be ok. Seek assistance of the school, explain to them about his condition, speak to his psychiatrist Nd occy health link if he has one, if not get one. Keep up the conversations, tell him it's wrong and please do your upmost to keep his friendship circle. It will be worth it in the end. If you want to pm please feel free. I have had similar issues with my eldest son.

“you should have birthed a different son then, you must have done something wrong when you were pregnant”. That sounds to me like he's really struggling with feeling like he's different and there's something wrong with him, bless him.

To square peggy leggy

My son is 12 and has adhd diagnosed last year. His behaviour is becoming increasingly strange. He has very little friends as everyone thinks he's weird and boys want to pick fights with him all the time. His language is absolutely disgraceful, he walks round the house calling me and my husband names, swearing at us constantly, talking filthy dirty comments. He doesn't seem to think there is anything wrong with this and isn't bothered at all and is very defiant. It's alot of very sexual comments and sometimes he will flash his private parts at us and laugh. I'm finding this very uncomfortable, he has also touched by bum and chest on several occasions and laughs about it all. I'm getting concerned as it's getting worse and I worry what kind of person he's going to turn into. He has very hyper episodes, especially in the evenings. We're at the stage we can't go out as family due to how inappropriate his behaviour is. Recently at a bouncy castle/ trampoline park he ran around hyper spitting on the equipment.the staff came up to us at the end and told us he kept running away from them when they kept telling him to stop. It's becoming more and more humiliating to go out and it ruins it for my younger son who has to see all of this. He took adhd medication months ago which camhs recommended which have no effect on him, and he has since point blank refused to take anymore. I feel like he is going to have to take it at some point otherwise is he walking about acting crazy saying and doing what he likes. I feel ill living with him and my husband and I are miserable and don't know what else we can do. He also refuses to go to the camhs clinic. I'm also starting to wonder if it's more than adhd, however camhs didn't seem to think he had autism and only diagnosed him with adhd. He will tell you the same thing several times and rewatch silly videos on tik tok on repeat laughing hysterically. He never ever learns from his mistakes. It's like a warzone trying to get him out the house in time for school..we feel it's like having a toddler and are having to tell him put your socks on etc otherwise he sits staring into space. He had no concept of time and actually doesn't care about the stress he causes everyone when we're trying to get to work too.

Thank you to everyone who has replied.

He’s actually really good in the mornings, he’s home now and doing really well, he has his medication at breakfast. I think he might need to do the two dose per day option, all of these issues have occurred after school, in the afternoons and evenings. After the weekend medication break was so dreadful, I’m now feeling more confident and that the medication is helping.
I will talk to his paediatrician about switching to this option; we are due to see her this month (in the background will keep looking for someone else).

Thank you all.