The state of the fucking railway

[Gingernaut]

After trumpeting their green credentials, passengers are trying to get beyond Milton Keynes to Edinburgh - with tales of reporters giving each other lifts of over 300 miles to Scotland because all the planes are full.

I tried to travel 18 miles by train, only to find that today everything i fucked by 'essential' rail works that shut down or diverted everything north of Birmingham.

A rail replacement bus service was going to take three times as long as the train to get there and I was going to miss the event I was going to.

Now, there's a train collision in a tunnel - Wiltshire Police say it's lucky there are no fatalities.

The crash has swiped signalling over a wide area and there are delays all over the network

WTF is going on??

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10150571/Two-trains-collide-one-left-accident-near-Salisbury.html

I went on holiday to Edinburgh last week from Lancashire - journey in was fine, but on Thursday, when we were due to come back, all the trains were cancelled due to flooding or something on the west coast. It was very stressful and after speaking to several people at the station, managed to find an alternative route down the east coast.

It took nearly 6 hours instead of just over 2

The Salisbury incident may well have resulted from human error rather than from the state of the railways.

A BTP Superintendent said this afternoon that there was no evidence the driver of the derailed train pressed an emergency alarm, which would set the surrounding signals to red.

There will doubtless be an investigation to establish the facts of the incident in due course.

@Florianus

The Salisbury incident may well have resulted from human error rather than from the state of the railways.

A BTP Superintendent said this afternoon that there was no evidence the driver of the derailed train pressed an emergency alarm, which would set the surrounding signals to red.

There will doubtless be an investigation to establish the facts of the incident in due course.

I doubt the system relies on drivers to raise alarms in emergencies as the driver could be unconscious, at least I hope it doesn't!!

Surely everyone should have known hosting the COP in Glasgow would be utterly chaotic. Train travel at the weekend is rather precarious at the best of times!

Most trains have automatic warning systems, that are triggered in certain scenarios. Last nights accident appears to have been caused by something being on the track that the train struck and derailed. It likely took out all the signalling equipment in that area.

Maintenance is planned months in advance, depending on the works/location etc it could be planned as far as a year out. So unless it’s emergency works then it’s been planned for a long time. They’re not spur of the moment decisions. Most works happen on a weekend night as that’s usually when it is quietest.

Not every scenario can be imagined and dealt with before it becomes an issue. NWR have units that deal with lineside vegetation and they will have cyclical maintenance schedules. But these have been made to cover bigger areas with less people so more things like trees down will happen.

As with most public funded services they need more investment in a system that hasn’t really been hugely changed, especially in the north, since it was built.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-59116800

The first train derailed at a Y junction. This should have triggered a signal, preventing the second train entering the tunnel.

However, the driver of the second train didn't stop and it appears the signals failed to warn the driver of the crash.

@MynameisJune

Most trains have automatic warning systems, that are triggered in certain scenarios. Last nights accident appears to have been caused by something being on the track that the train struck and derailed. It likely took out all the signalling equipment in that area.

Maintenance is planned months in advance, depending on the works/location etc it could be planned as far as a year out. So unless it’s emergency works then it’s been planned for a long time. They’re not spur of the moment decisions. Most works happen on a weekend night as that’s usually when it is quietest.

Not every scenario can be imagined and dealt with before it becomes an issue. NWR have units that deal with lineside vegetation and they will have cyclical maintenance schedules. But these have been made to cover bigger areas with less people so more things like trees down will happen.

As with most public funded services they need more investment in a system that hasn’t really been hugely changed, especially in the north, since it was built.

This. It’s very complex and under-funded.

I doubt the system relies on drivers to raise alarms in emergencies as the driver could be unconscious, at least I hope it doesn't!!

The signalling system and the various automatic protection systems on trains cannot cope with every scenario. If they fail, the driver is the only person who can protect the train and its passengers. There is therefore a big button on the cab radio which, when pressed, sends an automatic priority call to all drivers within about 5km (as well as to the signaller) that all trains within about 5 km must stop immediately. Ife even that fails, standing instructions are that the driver (or guard, if there is one) must walk back just over a mile to place detonators on the track to warn any following train of the obstruction.

According to British Transport Police, the REC (radio emergency call) button was not used.

My point, though, is that the incident may not be due to the poor state of the rail network. The most common cause of train accidents are SPADs (Signals Passed At Danger), due to the inattention of the driver. In other words, human error.

The Railway Accident Investigation Branch usually produce an interim report within days, so we will probably learn the cause of the Salisbury incident quite quickly. One of the most likely areas of speculation is that the driver of the ex-Waterloo train (now sadly in hospital with "life-changing injuries") had braked, but it is a relatively fast line (50 MPH limit before the tunnel) and a build-up of wet leaves on the line over the last few days resulted in his train skidding past a red signal and into the ex-Portsmouth train due to poor rail adhesion. There could be a number of other explanations, though.

That's helpful @Florianus

I read this below and wondered how the rear of a train could hit an object ,thinking that the front would surely come into contact first ? But today's reports are dismissing the object on line as a cause .

The BTP said officers were called at 6.46pm and responded to an incident at Fisherton Tunnel, Salisbury. Citing a Network Rail spokesperson, PA reported that shortly before 7pm the rear carriage of a GWR train struck an object on its approach to Salisbury station and came off the tracks.

The derailment knocked out all of the signalling in the area,” the Network Rail spokesperson added. “Subsequently, the 17.20 South Western Railway service from London Waterloo to Honiton then collided with the Bristol train.

What I wonder about is the length of time between the "officers being called " at 6.46pm and the second train hitting the first - presumably at or after 7.20pm .
Wouldn't /couldn't contact have been made with the driver of the second train during that period ?

A South Western Railway (SWR) train running from London to Honiton, Devon, struck the side of a Great Western Railway (GWR) service from Southampton to Cardiff as they both entered Fisherton Tunnel
The trains were travelling in the same direction on different tracks but collided at a Y-shaped junction approaching the tunnel, with one hitting the side of the other, causing it to derail, British Transport Police (BTP) said.

It was initially thought the first train had struck an object in the tunnel, damaging signalling. However, BTP said "there was nothing to suggest" this had happened
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-59130769

What I wonder about is the length of time between the "officers being called " at 6.46pm and the second train hitting the first - presumably at or after 7.20pm . Wouldn't /couldn't contact have been made with the driver of the second train during that period

I don't think the initial reports of timings were correct. The BBC is now saying that both trains reached the tunnel at the same time.

Yes ,they are aren't they ! Sorry ,should have been able to work that out by myself .

Governments have made a huge mistake in pushing for hs2 when the state of the network overall is woeful. That money could have been put to so much better use, and would benefit far far more than shaving 30 mins off London to Birmingham.

One of the most likely areas of speculation is that the driver of the ex-Waterloo train (now sadly in hospital with "life-changing injuries") had braked, but it is a relatively fast line (50 MPH limit before the tunnel) and a build-up of wet leaves on the line over the last few days resulted in his train skidding past a red signal and into the ex-Portsmouth train due to poor rail adhesion.

The initial report from the Rail Accident Investigation Branch has now confimed that that is what they believe happened. The train from Portsmouth was running late, resulting in it heading for the junction at the tunnel mouth at the same time as the train from Waterloo.

The latter was given a red signal and the driver braked, but wet leaves on the line caused it to skid past the signal and into the side of the Portmouth train. The problem was exacerbated by a steep downhill gradient, the number of surrounding trees, the autumn leaf fall and the heavy rain over the weekend.

In the autumn, Network Rail runs Rail Head Treatment Trains in the early hours to clean leaf debris from the rails, but this line had not been visited for several days.

@Lonelycrab

Governments have made a huge mistake in pushing for hs2 when the state of the network overall is woeful. That money could have been put to so much better use, and would benefit far far more than shaving 30 mins off London to Birmingham.

This. Our local stations, not too far away from a mooted HS2 hub, in either direction can't even FIT the bloody trains travelling through them along the platforms! That one used to add an element of excitement commuting home, where the service was often two trains joined together so you couldn't walk the length of them, and you had to try to guess which end of the train was going to fit on the platform!

The service was horrendous when I used them daily. I've given up now and drive between the two cities instead.

Privatizing hasn't worked. The best railway systems I have travelled on have been state-owned ones. That's not to say that having a public railway system is guaranteed success, you also have to have a government that understands the importance of public transport and is willing to invest in it. We have neither.

The initial report from the Rail Accident Investigation Branch has now confimed that that is what they believe happened. The train from Portsmouth was running late, resulting in it heading for the junction at the tunnel mouth at the same time as the train from Waterloo.
The latter was given a red signal and the driver braked, but wet leaves on the line caused it to skid past the signal and into the side of the Portmouth train. The problem was exacerbated by a steep downhill gradient, the number of surrounding trees, the autumn leaf fall and the heavy rain over the weekend

Imagine being that driver :( Braking and nothing is happening and you're just sliding along and there's a train in front of you. And now he's badly injured, poor man. According to the BBC he is in his 70s so hopefully he can retire on a decent pension and SWR will look after him.

@Europilgrim

Privatizing hasn't worked. The best railway systems I have travelled on have been state-owned ones. That's not to say that having a public railway system is guaranteed success, you also have to have a government that understands the importance of public transport and is willing to invest in it. We have neither.

The train operating companies are private. Network Rail is a Public Sector body and responsible for the maintenance and infrastructure of the network.

Thoughts are very much with the driver. DH drives a train and likens wet leaves on the line to driving on ice.

Sorry @Europilgrim didn't add a sentence in there...just to say that unfortunately we already have the evidence of lack of investment from gov via Network Rail.

However, the driver of the second train didn't stop and it appears the signals failed to warn the driver of the crash.

The driver of the train couldnt stop which is an important difference.

And meanwhile the driver is in hospital with (reported) life changing injuries.

I understand your frustration but the driver and everyone involved are the ones who have my sympathy. Not you.

@Europilgrim

Privatizing hasn't worked. The best railway systems I have travelled on have been state-owned ones. That's not to say that having a public railway system is guaranteed success, you also have to have a government that understands the importance of public transport and is willing to invest in it. We have neither.

Network Rail,, the organisation responsible for the infrastructure of UK railways, has not been privatized. It is a state-controlled, not-for-profit company.

just to say that unfortunately we already have the evidence of lack of investment from gov via Network Rail

Was chatting to a guard a few years back about the persistent signal failures that were causing havoc across my bit of the network. He said that there was a box that contained electronic gubbins on each signal that were recently replaced on hundreds of signals. Instead of using the German designed box as had happened for years, it was decided to use a much cheaper Chinese made housing.

The problem was that when you had both wind and rain at the same time, the box basically filled up with water and the electronics failed, thus taking down whole sections of track.

The guard put it down to simple penny pinching/underinvestment.

Yes, Network Rail needs more investment but the problem is also with the privately-owned operating companies which mean that for many people train tickets are just too expensive and the system too complicated meaning that fewer people use the trains - and it is even less enticing to invest in the infrastructure. It's a vicious circle.

I live in a country (Italy) where there are a lot of problems with the rail system but there has been a huge improvement and investment in the rolling stock and lines over the last few decades. The UK seems to be going backwards in this respect.

Signalling is a major issue cross the country. In the West Midlands, where I am, there are daily alerts for minor or major delays due to signalling faults or works. Drives me nuts.

Best wished to Robin Tandy and his family.

www.itv.com/news/meridian/2021-11-03/injured-salisbury-train-crash-driver-a-50-year-veteran-who-acted-impeccably