Secondary school admissions

[ChocolatesAndSweets]

I apologise, as this is probably very clear cut for most, but I wanted to ask with regards to secondary school admissions and how the process works.

This is the first time I'm using the council forms for a space at a school.

I understand you have 3 choices, but are all three schools considered at the same time to see which one fits best? Or do they work through the list (so if first one cannot be offered check if second can and so on?)

I only ask, as the grammar school have stated that in order to be sure of receiving a space it must be put first on the CAF form. So it has me wondering whether I have misunderstood the process. Also, does this mean schools are aware if they are 1st, 2nd or 3rd choice?

I've tried to Google the answer but so far I've come across 2 different answers, one being it is 'going down list process' and the second is that child's name is put down for all schools and best fit is offered.

If you qualified for a place at non grammar school placed first you would not be allocated one at grammar placed second even if you qualified. The assumption is you would prefer the higher placed school.

The LA know your order but not each school.

You are evaluated against the admissions criteria (usually things like distance, siblings, catchment area etc) individually for each school to see if you qualify for a place. If you qualify for more than 1 school in your list you will be allocated a place at your highest ranked preference. e.g. if you would get a place at both your first and second preferences according to the admissions criteria, you will be offered your first preference.

If you put a non-grammar school first and the grammar school second, then you won't be offered the grammar school unless you don't meet the criteria for the non-grammar. That's why they tell you to put it first (of course, if you prefer the non-grammar - you should put that school first).

That's why you should put schools in genuine order of preference (and also, always include a school you have a good chance of getting into as a "banker").

I only ask, as the grammar school have stated that in order to be sure of receiving a space it must be put first on the CAF form.

They are pulling a fast one. If you don't qualify for your first preference, put the grammar second and qualify for it, you will get the place over and above someone who puts it first but qualifies under a lower category than you. (However of course if you really want the grammar above everyone else, then put it first).

The rules are that schools cannot penalise you for putting them second, third or 6th. It is an equal preference system, that only looks at your preferred ranking if more than 1 school can offer you a place.

All other things being equal, you get a place at the school next door to you 'above' someone who lives 10 miles away even if they put it first and you put it last. The only way you don't get that school is if you get a higher preference one instead.

They check if you are eligible a place at the 1st choice if you are no more is checked. They then check the second on so on until you get a place a one of the schools. It’s not about a best fit.

Not getting into choice one, doesn’t give you less chance of choice two.

As far as I understand it, the order you put the schools in only comes into play if you were to make the admissions list for more than one of your choices - in which case you’d get offered the one you put first, and dropped from the other one’s list.
I’m not sure why the grammar school is saying you need to put it first, but it is probably just to reduce the risk of you getting into a closer/less popular school as well and getting bumped off the grammar list as a result. Presumably it’s a popular/over-subscribed school?

Schools recieve all applications and put them in order of how well they qualify.
If you qualify for more than one they cancel the lower preferences then go further down the list
Process repeats until everyone hopefully has an offer.

Thank you everyone for the replies.

I believe the grammar school is oversubscribed, so I appreciate that is why they would suggest putting it first one the list.

Both the grammar and non grammar are out of our catchment area, grammar being closer (but in the next county- not sure if that makes a difference), so it's a bit of a gamble it feels. The non grammar is also outstanding so probably oversubscribed too, and DS was veering more towards that as first choice (really liked what he saw).

We had it stressed to us to ensure we put our preferred grammar school as 1st choice as people in the past had put a comp in first place then the grammar in second assuming that if their child had a qualifying score then they would be given the grammar. If your child gets a place at their first choice school then that’s what they get.

You need to fill in the form in the order that you WANT the schools.

So, if the grammar school is the one you want, put that first, even if you are not 100% sure you will get it.

They use a complex computer model which allows you to be considered against all the schools at the same time.
The actual effect of that from your point of view looks like this:

• you are considered for your first choice, and if eligible, you get it. If not eligible:

-you are considered for your second choice, alongside everyone who put it first (in other words it is no disadvantage to you that you put it second) if you are eligible for that, you'll be offered a place, if not: -you are considered for third choice, again alongside all the people who put it first. If you are not eligbile for this school then:

• local authority has to offer you a place in the nearest school with available places, which might be miles away.

It is the law that the school doesn't know if you put them 1st or third. The reason the grammar says put them first, is that if you put local comp first and grammar second, you'll be offered a place at the local comp if you're eligible, (because you put it first) and not at the grammar. (becuase they have already offered you place at the comp)

Do you not have to sit tests
For the grammar in your area?

@idontlikealdi

Do you not have to sit tests For the grammar in your area?

Even if they sit tests they still have to apply, and whether they get in will depend on their score, the admission criteria, and who else applies to the school. e.g. It might be Score 140+ and whoever is closest OR it might be ranked in order of score and best 120 who apply get the place. There may be priority to siblings, or not etc. Just because you 'pass' the test, doesn't mean you get a place.

@idontlikealdi yes, he's passed 11+ so now it's just filling the forms.

Just wanted to check I understood the process correctly before making a mistake and regretting it.

We are however (DS included) leaning towards the non grammar now. However, the non grammar is same county but approx 25 miles from home address, the grammar is different county but approx 14 miles. Don't know if being in a different county changes anything.

I'm assuming it would be a wise to put third choice closer to home, as both of those are very much out of catchment.

If distance is a determining criteria then definitely put a local school you would be happy with and likely to qualify for as third. Those are long distances to travel each day and for after school activities. Is public transport convenient?

whether the different county matters depends entirely on the admission criteria of the particular schools.

for example, 3 schools near us;

school A, grammar, criteria is based on test result only, places given out from highest scorers down. Distance and county irrelevant, so cleverest first.
school B grammar, criteria is pass 11+ then distance kicks in, so as long as you've passed it is closest first.
school C , not grammar, places given to in county siblings, then out of county siblings, then in county others, then out of county others, all done also by distance. So if you are out of county you are bottom of the list.

So look up their admissions criteria, and see.
If you put your comp first and grammar second, and you don't get a place at the comp, you would still be considered for the place at the grammar, alongside those who put it first.
Of course there is a risk you get neither, so then your third choice school needs to be a more definite reach.

25 miles is a long long way. Even 14 miles is a fair distance.
I'd be thinking seriously about viability of travel times & method.
If it is school bus, what if he does a club, is there a 'late bus'.

Your LA or the schools should publish info on 'last distance offered' for previous years. Unless you are extremely rural I'd have thought 25 miles seems a very long way out...

Thank you all, I appreciate both of those are long distances (myself and siblings travelled approx 30 miles to school- but this was many years ago so traffic is a different story now).

They are both accessible via public transport, and both have people we know with children attending. The comp has a few more local children attending, and they do tend to car pool. However, I will re check admissions criteria as it might have changed recently.

The comp (furthest) in the same city as some family members too, who are happy to help in case of emergency etc.

This process feels a little overwhelming 😂 but I'm wiser now (I think!)

For those wondering why I haven't mentioned any schools very close to us, basically in a nutshell the 3 secondary schools in our town aren't the best (think below average, special measures). I appreciate a child attending a good school doesn't automatically equate brilliant grades, but if the option of better schools is available I'd rather go for that, as I know DS needs an environment that pushes you to try hard.

OP - many kids at my dcs schools travel. It is fine.

From what you’ve said I would be very very surprised of you got a place at the non-grammar if it is 25 miles away! Have you looked at their admissions criteria? There will be distance somewhere in there which I am sure will rule it out as a possibility

school C , not grammar, places given to in county siblings, then out of county siblings, then in county others, then out of county others, all done also by distance. So if you are out of county you are bottom of the list

That's really dodgy - the Greenwich ruling is meant to prevent councils using county boundaries like that, having admissions criteria which are not compliant is a basis for successful appeal

Can you check out how things have worked out in previous years? People who live in the same town as our local high school (I.e. under a mile away) are considered out of catchment and in some years have not been offered a place. This is not a city or a particularly exciting school, it’s just oversubscribed as more and more houses are built. You definitely need to choose something closer to home but acceptable to you as option 3.

@meditrina In my area we have catchments which do not cross county boundaries so the School C example is exactly how it works here and doesn’t breach any rules. I live in one county but can easily walk into two others so we are talking about not being prioritised for schools only a mile or two away. It’s pretty much accepted as how it is here although we don’t have grammars so it’s less complicated and most pick their most local school. Some do get in to schools as out of catchment and no sibling, it just depends on the year.

You are correct.

You put the school you want most as 1. It will be checked to see if you meet the entry criteria ( incl grammar test passed / not passed as well as distance etc. ). If that all agrees and you met the criteria you are in.

If not move and ask the same q of choice 2 and so on.

So put the school you want at the top and one that you will definitely get into at the bottom.

Always put that “ banker “ school otherwise you’ll get what they have - miles away / special measures , what ever and that will be the only offer they are obliged to give

You need to have a look at historical admissions data. Obviously things can change, and it only gives you a guide, not a definitive answer, but if, for instance, no child from more than 3 miles away has been admitted for the last 5 years you'd know that you are almost certainly wasting a preference if you list the school 25 miles away.
Make sure you have at least one school on the list that would be acceptable to you and that you are pretty much sure of a place at. Remember that the LEA don't have to offer you a place at one of your preferences, and that if you don't qualify for a place at any of the schools you list then all they are obliged to do is offer a place at the nearest school to you that has places after all the other allocations are made. Obviously these tend to be schools that are undersubscribed for a reason and may well be some distance away. Most people would prefer a less good school near to home than one a long way away, so don't fill all your preferences with schools that you have a low chance of getting in to unless you are prepared to run the risk of being allocated wherever is left over at the end of the admissions process.

@CeeceeBloomingdale

Having a catchment area round a school is fine, and using things like parish boundaries as part of the demarcation is also fine. And that might mean that part of the boundary of the catchment happens to fall along the historic border between counties.

But a whole county one (which is what I took the earlier post to mean) is not OK, and contravenes earlier rulings.