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Social care

41 replies

Pixxie7 · 06/10/2021 03:53

So Sajid Javid now thinks that as well as working longer we should also be looking after our elderly relatives rather than relying on the state. I despair, I guess we can actually relax at the age of 80 plus.

OP posts:
AnkleDeep · 06/10/2021 10:33

Care homes around here also include basic nursing care.

For centuries families have looked after their own. Children or elderly. Why do you think there is no obligation on the current generation to do the same? If you feel you can't do it then get paid carers to help.

I loved my parents dearly and it was a privilege to look after them.

MrsPsmalls · 06/10/2021 10:34

The thing is though, the state doesn't have the money to look after the elderly and other care home residents properly. Not enough carers no prospect of recruiting enough and no will to do so . Heck the moaning about the recent small tax increases! And none of that will find its way to carer's pockets. No political party is going to raises taxes enough to make good elder care sustainable as they would be voted out at the first opportunity. So what are the options? Please don't say taxing Amazon! My unpopular opinion is that we are living too long. Lots of us don't want to be alive by that stage, and no one wants to care for us. Make assisted suicide easy for those who want it. This should be allowed for humanitarian reasons. It will however (finally) be allowed for financial reasons - which the government will dress up as humanitarian reasons.

Maverickess · 06/10/2021 10:44

@UntilYourNextHairBrainedScheme

In "the good old days" and many countries where there is no social care, elderly and profoundly physically disabled people and those with severe chronic illness were often kept in bed all day every day until they died, brought and fed meals and cleaned up once per day. When one woman had a very elderly or ill or profoundly physically disabled dependent, a clutch of small children and a household to run this was usually the most she could manage and considered normal. We now understand that this is inhumane, and completely unacceptable - but most families cannot earn two incomes and look after their very elderly relatives once they get to the stage of needing social care.

What's changed is that the care provided to generations who died fifty years ago would be regarded as elderly abuse now, and that due to better care and better medical management of geriatric chronic illness people are surviving in extremely poor health for years and years longer than fifty years ago.

Yes this. I work in elderly social care and 25 years ago I was caring for people in their 70's and 80's, a few in their 90's and someone over a hundred was not quite rare but certainly not common, and the level of care needed was not as it is now. Now it's 80's and 90's and people over 100 are not the novelty they used to be. There's also far more people with dementia, and chronic conditions that need a lot of care, and a mindset of keeping people going as long as possible, doing whatever you can to achieve that, regardless of the quality of life that delivers. We don't like to talk about death and people dying being inevitable, it's a taboo subject for many, morbid and offensive. It's also not really the done thing to talk about how much that costs financially either, but in very simple terms, more people need more care and there's less money to provide it, and no one wants to foot the bill, people don't want to lose their inheritance, no one wants to pay more tax (me included because I am already on a knife edge financially) the government don't want to invest in it and yet the demands for care and how it should be delivered are high (as they should be).

It's not feasible for people to provide the levels of care I am in a home, with equipment, staff, medical back up and a purpose designed building at home in between their own lives, especially as the cost of living is high and people need to work as much as physically possible in generally inflexible ways. People generally don't understand the depth of care that's needed to keep someone safe, watered, fed and clean - just the basics - on a daily basis when they can't asses risk for themselves, when they no longer know how to use a spoon, when they can't walk or express what they need at any given time.
I see people in their 70's and 80's doing this for spouses, and both are suffering and in need of help. I see family members juggling children, ft jobs and homes doing this, until it becomes too much and they can't carry on. I also see families just wanting to get 'the problem' dealt with and not wanting to be responsible at all for their relatives, and not change their own lives in the slightest to offer even minimal support, and asking why they should be responsible.
I don't really know who's responsibility it is. Is it the family? Or society? Or the government?
With this announcement, it'd seem that the government are pushing it back towards family to take the responsibility, because in effect, the money spent that social care is a black hole that no one wants to put their money into.

cptartapp · 06/10/2021 11:01

People (women) may have looked after family members historically but often out of a sense of duty. I imagine the vast majority didn't want to be doing it at all. People now just don't pop off in their 70's. Modern medicine and a 'cure all' attitude means many hundreds of thousands now routinely live into their 90's and well beyond. Frail, incontinent, immobile, confused.
Any older person worth their salt wouldn't want that caring role for their busy adult DC surely? Indefinitely. Especially when they've got jobs and young DC of their own. Isn't that what we 'scrimp and save' for all our lives? To buy in as much care as needed?
The family I know where life centres round frail elderly DM with a multitude of health issues is not one I'd choose. Adult DC run ragged, unable to enjoy their retirement and all the women involved on antidepressants.

ElBandito · 06/10/2021 11:11

@AnkleDeep

  1. You are very graciously allowing those needing 'intensive health care' to rely on the state, but do you think Javid meant that?
  1. What is 'intensive health care'.
  1. What if you are 78 and your parent is 98? They may not need intensive health care, but you may not be physically able to supply what they need. Even worse you could be 58 with a 78 year old parent and a 98 year old grand parent needing help.
  1. What makes you think that people aren't looking after their own? You did. Everyone I know who has gone into a care home has gone there because it was the last resort.
  1. What if you live in another country?
  1. What if your parents were abusive. Would it still be a privilege to look after them?
  1. I bet you judge all people whose parents are in a care home, even if they are paying for it themselves and not relying on the state.
BarbedButterfly · 06/10/2021 11:14

It is just an impossible situation all around really. If I wanted to care for my mother I would have to move as I left the area due to lack of jobs. This would also mean my partner leaving his job too and we couldn't afford to live on carers allowance and honestly, I am not sure it is fair to expect my partner to give up the career he trained a long time for. My mother rents a one bedroom flat and while I love my mother, I could not live with her again and certainly can't expect my partner to do so or assist with personal care. On top of that of course is the fact I am disabled myself so just not up to it.

I cared for my grandmother and I won't do it again for anyone but my partner. I was woken three to four times a night as she was scared or lonely, I had to try and fit it in around a very inflexible job where I was also on call. It almost broke me and that was ten years ago when I was a lot fitter and less tired.

It is just not practical in this world where both people work full time and not always 9-5, long hours a lot of the time, may still have young children themselves. Have a much higher cost of living so carers or part time isn't possible.

UntilYourNextHairBrainedScheme · 06/10/2021 11:18

I live in Germany now and everyone pays 1.5% of their salary as compulsory care insurance deductible at source for employees, like all other taxes. That's in addition to income tax, compulsory state medical insurance, compulsory state pension insurance, compulsory state unemployment insurance. It does add up to a lot more compulsory deductions than in the UK (on my salary I'd pay 12% national insurance, here these contributions are over 20% and my income tax is also higher), and it still isn't enough - but the situation isn't quite as dire as in England (don't know how other UK countries are faring).

Siriisatwat · 06/10/2021 12:43

@AnkleDeep

This must be the first generation where people don't feel they should care for elderly relatives.

Why don't people want to support the people who cared for them?

I'm not talking about people needing intensive health care just those who need support in their later years.

Why wouldn't you?

I’m 41. my dad is 86, extremely difficult and is losing more of his mind every day.

He phoned my 39 times during the night and was just babbling shit.

I wish I was dead.

I’m pretty sure my husband is about to leave me as he can’t take my dad calling him every hour, sometimes calling him all the names under the sun.

I don’t want to support him as he gets worse.

Siriisatwat · 06/10/2021 12:48

@AnkleDeep it’s not a privilege. It’s a living hell. I’ve got a baby and a young child and I can’t enjoy them.

countrygirl99 · 06/10/2021 12:56

@AnkleDeep

This must be the first generation where people don't feel they should care for elderly relatives.

Why don't people want to support the people who cared for them?

I'm not talking about people needing intensive health care just those who need support in their later years.

Why wouldn't you?

Well my grandparents were all dead well l before they got to the age our parents are. For them care consisted of of inviting their parents to Sunday lunch and sending teenage DH round to mow the lawn. They weren't dealing with 4 extremely old parents all with significant care needs 24 hours a day. I can understand why there has been a generational change.
BamboozledandBefuddled · 06/10/2021 12:58

@AnkleDeep

Care homes around here also include basic nursing care.

For centuries families have looked after their own. Children or elderly. Why do you think there is no obligation on the current generation to do the same? If you feel you can't do it then get paid carers to help.

I loved my parents dearly and it was a privilege to look after them.

I've never considered that any generation had an obligation to care for their parents. Last time I checked, no-one gets a choice about having parents. If people choose to have a child, I certainly consider that an obligation exists to provide all necessary care to that child - for life, if required. But not the other way round.

Before anyone starts, I've been DM's carer for 14 years - from choice, not from obligation.

AnkleDeep · 06/10/2021 13:28

[quote ElBandito]@AnkleDeep

  1. You are very graciously allowing those needing 'intensive health care' to rely on the state, but do you think Javid meant that?
  1. What is 'intensive health care'.
  1. What if you are 78 and your parent is 98? They may not need intensive health care, but you may not be physically able to supply what they need. Even worse you could be 58 with a 78 year old parent and a 98 year old grand parent needing help.
  1. What makes you think that people aren't looking after their own? You did. Everyone I know who has gone into a care home has gone there because it was the last resort.
  1. What if you live in another country?
  1. What if your parents were abusive. Would it still be a privilege to look after them?
  1. I bet you judge all people whose parents are in a care home, even if they are paying for it themselves and not relying on the state.[/quote]
  2. Sarcastic shite. No point in responding to such nonsense. As if I can read his mind.
  1. Care above the basic assisting.
  1. Then you pay. I said that already.
  1. Not sure why you are arguing with me then.
  1. You pay.
  1. That would be your choice what to do. I cannot imagine how it would feel.
  1. Wrong again. I said my Dad went into a home. His choice and it gave him a more comfortable life for a couple of years. I judge people who just abandon their parents (or children) to the state.
Maverickess · 06/10/2021 13:39

@AnkleDeep

This must be the first generation where people don't feel they should care for elderly relatives.

Why don't people want to support the people who cared for them?

I'm not talking about people needing intensive health care just those who need support in their later years.

Why wouldn't you?

More and more people need 'intensive' health care, because they're living longer and surviving illness, injury and conditions that the previous generation wouldn't have. That 'support' has been, and is being, provided IME, but people are increasingly living past that point due to improving medical care and society not wanting to accept the inevitable and needing the 'intensive' health care, when generally a generation ago they wouldn't have done so.

The increased life expectancy and living with serious health complaints has led to this, alongside the need for two incomes to support a family (or government support if that's not an option) even modestly because of the cost of living not matching wages.
Social care has also been run on a business model, with profit and business being at the heart of it. Workers are leaving because they're needing better pay to survive, and the good will has run out.
That's led to a crisis in social care, and the government's answer seems to be that people need to take care of their own, rather than use the taxes they're paid to increase the provision as the demands have gone up.

AnkleDeep · 06/10/2021 13:51

The increased life expectancy and living with serious health complaints has led to this, alongside the need for two incomes to support a family (or government support if that's not an option) even modestly because of the cost of living not matching wages.

Also factor in the number of children who would have died at birth but now survive but need constant nursing care. And then they become adults needing the same care.

It is indeed a crisis.

Maverickess · 06/10/2021 13:56

@AnkleDeep

The increased life expectancy and living with serious health complaints has led to this, alongside the need for two incomes to support a family (or government support if that's not an option) even modestly because of the cost of living not matching wages.

Also factor in the number of children who would have died at birth but now survive but need constant nursing care. And then they become adults needing the same care.

It is indeed a crisis.

Yes, but I guess it's down to personal opinion as to if this is a good or bad thing. On an individual level, it's a good thing. I don't think it's acceptable for society and government to push for, and applaud this approach, then shrug their shoulders at the inevitable downside to it.
CarrotVan · 06/10/2021 15:58

We need to think more about quality of life and less about quantity of life

As families we need to honest conversations about care, death and incapacity with older relatives. Including funding their choices and making our own boundaries clear

We need to have those same conversations with doctors when our relatives are ill and ensure they consider the patient fully not just the specific disease they are interested in

We need better link up between health and social care so movement between the two is seamless and not held up by arguments about whose budget Care comes from or who is responsible

We need to reduce the admin burden of interacting with health and social care for relatives

We don’t need to force millions of unskilled, untrained relatives into caring roles that they are ill suited to.

We don’t need to impoverish one generation to provide care for the other

We don’t need to sacrifice our children’s lives in service of their grandparents

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