So disgusted with A&E about my son.

[Paranoidandroidmarvin]

My son has a undiagnosed chronic painful condition.

Got to the point today that he was in so much agony. He could walk and Everytime he tried his legs went from underneath him. The doctors at the surgery have given him no painkillers for this condition.

So I took him to A&E. hoping that they would help him with the pain.

Nope. He sat there for over six hours. And they refused to help him as it was a pre condition. He crawled out of that hospital to the door.
When I got there I had to get him a wheel chair as he could walk.

They let a 17 year old unable to walk. Walk out of that hospital with no treatment and on his own as I had to wait in the car.

Yes, I know that @AnotherName456

But as it's been going on for some time, it wasn't an accident or an emergency.

I feel HUGE sympathy for his mum but going to A&E for something that is not new (albeit undiagnosed by the GP) wasn't right.

At home, she could have dosed him with the strongest OTC pain killers and then today rang the GP until the got an appt - or he could do that as he is 17.

I think it is unrealistic to expect A&E to magically get MRI scans etc in place when he had already seen his GP- who sounds useless, of course.

@olidora63

A and E should be the right place to go if out of hours with agonising pain ! What’s the alternative? Sorry but what a screwed up world we live in where Mothers are telling another Mother that her child’s pain is a waste of Aand E time ! Analgesia could have been given to help until today ! I worked in A and E and it was unheard of to send anyone away in pain ….what has happened to compassion and empathy!

Agree with this.

A vet would be disciplined/struck off for leaving an animal in severe pain and refusing to treat them out of hours.

First of all you need to tell us more. It sounds like it is time for a new GP, your current one is not working out very well by the sounds of it. I had a bad experience earlier this year with a ambulance that was called out because I had a endometriosis flare up when out and about in town in late April. I thought it was undiagnosed endometriosis but the man said it was only very bad period pain.

Due to the addictive nature of painkillers I think they are very reluctant to give them out now.
A&E has definitely changed over past couple of years, unless you are dying they seem to be quite abrupt. I don’t blame them, I blame the conditions they work in.

Take him to a physiotherapist.
A few years back I couldn't walk more than 10 minutes without excruciating pain and my GP said it was sciatica and basically live with it.

Went to a physiotherapist and my hips were out of alignment. Sorted in one session. Worth checking

@JinglingHellsBells

Yes, I know that *@AnotherName456*

But as it's been going on for some time, it wasn't an accident or an emergency.

I feel HUGE sympathy for his mum but going to A&E for something that is not new (albeit undiagnosed by the GP) wasn't right.

At home, she could have dosed him with the strongest OTC pain killers and then today rang the GP until the got an appt - or he could do that as he is 17.

I think it is unrealistic to expect A&E to magically get MRI scans etc in place when he had already seen his GP- who sounds useless, of course.

OTC painkillers don't touch my pain and sometimes my prescription ones don't either. Which is why I have sometimes had to be forced to go to a&e. They have always given me something stronger. It's inhumane to leave someone suffering that has come for help

Something similar happened to me, I had progressive pain for years but it also turned into balance issues and numbness. I could hardly walk or even stand up without losing balance and becoming extremely light headed. Both general doctors and emergency doctors were completely useless (and I mean many of them for years and years) but when my walking became so affected I'd had enough and did my own research, ploughing through medical papers I had no business reading. Turns out I can't eat gluten (or wheat not sure which as I never had the tests) a week or so after cutting it out my symptoms were easing. A few months on and they are totally gone. No chronic nerve pain, no burning sensations, no balance issues, no numbness. Apparently, gluten/wheat issues can cause all sorts without affecting the stomach. It can affect the nevers like for me but is also associated with things like multiple unexplained miscarriages. I'm not saying this is what your son has but the NHS typically fails when it comes to stuff that isn't super duper easy to diagnose. I really hope you get answers.

Really feel for you OP. Some of the posts scolding you for taking him to A&E are not very sympathetic.

If my child was in unbearable pain I would consider that an emergency too. At this point I would be complaining to GPs that they are not managing the condition effectively or taking it seriously enough. Threaten to report to BMA and request appointment to a specialist who can help your son.

[quote ReeseWitherfork]@TILFA hence I said "usually" Although curious if it's called "out of hours" as that literally means "out of GP surgery opening hours". Most GPs who sit in A&E aren't OOH GPs, they're GPs being paid by the hospital. OOH GPs are a separately contracted service.[/quote]
😉

I know what OOH stands for and what it means. I didn't name it, I just avoid it! I also know what usually means so no quotes needed. I know too that my closest OOH place does not close when normal GP surgeries are open. I didn't decide that either; the board decided on 24h after the location was confirmed. This was done so A&E can send round our patients who don't need an emergency appointment and they can send theirs, who do, to us.

My own GP works at OOH 1 day or night a week and 4 days in the surgery taking phone calls and seeing a few patients. I don't think he cares who pays him, he just likes the money 😁

[quote ReeseWitherfork]@TILFA hence I said "usually" Although curious if it's called "out of hours" as that literally means "out of GP surgery opening hours". Most GPs who sit in A&E aren't OOH GPs, they're GPs being paid by the hospital. OOH GPs are a separately contracted service.[/quote]
Next door to A and E in our hospital we have an OOH clinic that 111 can refer you to. I think it's mainly staffed by nurses (who can percribe stuff) but a doctor on the end of a phone. We've been seen there for Croup (needed admitting and steroids) tonsillitis (needed antibitotics) type stuff.

I have to admit I'd be pushy OP. I've been unwell for a month and whilst the doctors are still not sure what is wrong with me i have had a ct scan, lumbar, puncture, MRI, blood tests for everything, decent pain relief medication, steroids, antibiotics and a referral to Neuro. The last doctor who discharged me said they'd much rather see me a dozen times and it be nothing than not see me atall and miss something serious. Healthcare seems to be such a postcode lottery in the UK.

OP has anyone suggested fibromyalgia? Or FND?

I have both fibromyalgia(that's what causes my constant pain)and the FND(was the reason I ended up in a wheelchair)because of the FND I've had to relearn how to walk,talk,dress myself,everything really.

Have a look online at both of those conditions(there are good support groups on FB ) people talk about and list they're symptoms .

What is the undiagnosed/pre diagnosed condition you think your son has?

How long has he had symptoms? What treatment so far?

There are a lot of highly addictive pain kilkers out there- and evidence they do not actually work long term but just become an addiction.

Push through for the diagnosis- ask for referral to specialist if needed.

Two things here I want to mention – guidelines and chronic or pre-existing conditions, not to anyone in particular.

NICE guidelines for patients in chronic pain changed significantly in April 2021. These changes include removing all but ibuprofen, paracetamol and a couple of other painkillers from the pharmaceutical treatment section. This means A&E should no longer be prescribing painkillers that are not routinely prescribed by their GP or consultant. They should be checking it isn't a new pain and checking that (apart from the pain) there isn't anything new causing the pain that needs to be treated in an A&E setting.

I think some people are getting a bit confused about the meanings of pre-existing and chronic. A person can have pre-existing pain that has lasting lasted since birth but there's no reason can be found for it that is a pre-existing condition; undiagnosed pain. It is also a chronic condition. A chronic condition as described by the NHS is a condition that has lasted longer than 3 months.

The NHS includes undiagnosed pain lasting 3+ months under chronic conditions and as a pre-existing pain, it is not a new pain. This does not mean they have stopped looking for answers.

@TILFA I used quotation marks because I was quoting myself; I didn't even consider you might not to know what it meant. My curiosity was because it's out of the ordinary, not because I assumed you were lying.

The standard NHS definition of OOH is not a 24 hour service, so there's no doubt why were all bloody confused about where people should be going in different scenarios if trusts are going off and renaming services willynilly.

So your GP has refused to help, but the Emergency department are at fault?
I think you need to redirect your anger at the GP.
I don't think you understand how awful things are in ED. They have ambulances outside with patients in waiting hours because there is no space in the ED for them (and not allowed trollies in the corridors anymore). So the ambulances can't go and help anyone else until ED can take in their patients. ED is full of people with self-induced harm from drinking and taking drugs. Plus accidents, heart attacks etc.

I wonder what you thought ED would do for your DS - were you looking for an emergency referral so that your DS would get the tests that the GP is not referring for? Or an emergency admission? Or just strong painkillers?

You can complain about your GP in several ways: they have a patient group specifically for that practice, and there is the CCG.

OP I do feel for your son (and you).

I have been there with my partner who had agonising back pain. Going round and round in circles with GP and getting nowhere. We ended up calling an ambulance one night when he was in so much agony he was unable to even feel that he needed the loo. The ambulance service needed to use gas and air to get him out of the house. A&E gave painkillers via a drip then discharged with no further plan. Of course, within 12 hours we were back to square one. We ended up paying for private scans, and changing GP. The private scans gave a rough idea of what was happening, which the new GP has now taken forward and a treatment plan is now in place.

It is all well and good saying A&E isn't appropriate, but its a helpless situation when it feels like noone is listening and all the while, someone is suffering.

If you can't go private, i'd advise either making a fuss at current gp to get them to pull their finger out, or moving gp altogether.

All the best

Sounds like your GP has been totally crap! Obviously without knowing his condition it's hard to say, but if it's a chronic condition that causes this much pain surely they should have referred him to a consultant? I have no clue about these things from a procedural level, I just have a few chronic conditions and I have a consultant for all of them. IME, the care from the consultants in NHS hospitals is worlds apart from the care you get from the majority of GPs as they're essentially privatised and just want you in and out asap (that's my experience anyway - you do get the odd GP that really does want to help you).

Can you push for a referral to a consultant, OP? Or if not, get a new GP who will be happier to refer him?

I don't know whether A&E is the appropriate place for a chronic condition complaint, but I completely understand why you did it and I've done similar before. We don't have an A&E nearby but we do have a minor injuries unit which is always very quiet, and I've been down there on sundays before when I've taken a turn for the worst and can't wait until the next working day for various injections from my doctor etc due to excruciating pain that painkillers wasn't touching. When you're in that much pain you just have to do something, I imagine that feeling is even worse when it's your child in pain!

@olidora63

A and E should be the right place to go if out of hours with agonising pain ! What’s the alternative? Sorry but what a screwed up world we live in where Mothers are telling another Mother that her child’s pain is a waste of Aand E time ! Analgesia could have been given to help until today ! I worked in A and E and it was unheard of to send anyone away in pain ….what has happened to compassion and empathy!

Sadly, the NICE guidelines changed in April 2021.

I agree that mothers should be supporting each other; you can guarantee an A&E thread will cause the same argument every time and guidelines changing does nothing towards keeping the peace on MN.

Unfortunately A&E isn't the right place to get medication for a long-term condition. I hope your son can find a solution to his pain - sounds like the first step should be changing GPs or pushing for a referral to a specialist pain clinic.

if/when you see gp ask about pain relief. ask about the correct dosage for his age and size.

The OPs son is 17yo. You wouldn’t be looking at a reduced dose or adjustment as the default.

[quote ReeseWitherfork]@TILFA I used quotation marks because I was quoting myself; I didn't even consider you might not to know what it meant. My curiosity was because it's out of the ordinary, not because I assumed you were lying.

The standard NHS definition of OOH is not a 24 hour service, so there's no doubt why were all bloody confused about where people should be going in different scenarios if trusts are going off and renaming services willynilly.[/quote]
100% agree with you about the confusion caused. Ours has name-changed to collaboration but even staff there, A&E, other staff and paitients call it OOH.

I was just having a bit of fun with the quotes comment; I knew you weren't questioning if I knew it's meaning and hadn't even thought of the other possible reason. It's a shame a bit of fun isn't obvious online isn't it. Sorry if it got your back up.

So the doctors watched him crawl about and deemed him healthy enough not to need treatment? Or did they watch you wheel him about in a wheel chair and decide he was well enough to leave, his mum is just in a bit of a flap?

I went to A and E in Australia a few years ago when I woke up with my neck in spasm. It’s technically a long term issue as I’ve had it on and off since my teens and have seen physios etc. Not life threatening or limb threatening but I can’t drive or cook or turn my head when it happens.

I was given some pain relief and diazepam and it helped with the pain and spasm. No one turned me away.

A vet would be disciplined/struck off for leaving an animal in severe pain and refusing to treat them out of hours

I have taken many cats to the vets over the years and I agree with this.

@Paranoidandroidmarvin

A and e will only help if the ‘illness’ is only 24/48 hours new.
Are you quite sure that your son doesn’t have ANY pain in his groin now? None at all??

@Hazel444

Unfortunately A&E isn't the right place to get medication for a long-term condition. I hope your son can find a solution to his pain - sounds like the first step should be changing GPs or pushing for a referral to a specialist pain clinic.

I've never had a problem going to A&E for stronger painkillers for an RA flare. And hopefully I won't need to anytime soon, but if I did I would go again if I couldnt get to ooh or my consultant