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Original poster

How do you know when you’re flogging a dead horse at work

21 replies

Cutitour · 14/09/2021 06:59

6 months in a new role, NHS.

Before I came to this role I was warned about this team. The clinicians have an awful reputation for being difficult, unwilling to act as a team, very old fashioned hierarchical thinking. I’m an experienced manager and decided to take on the challenge. Yesterday was the first time I actually thought I can’t do this. I can’t waste another year of my life fighting a losing battle with these people.

I can’t give examples as it would be quite outing but in general, nobody internal will come to work for the team. We cannot recruit from outside because of the reputation of some of the consultants. The way they speak to non clinical and junior clinical staff is a disgrace. Absolute unwillingness to do anything which doesn’t fall under what they deem to be their job role (a patient was left in a wheelchair for 3 hrs as they refused to go and clerk them as that’s a juniors job). Juniors were all busy with ward round jobs.

Are there some teams which just can’t be turned around?

OP posts:

AtlasPine · 14/09/2021 07:01

That sounds awful. That poor patient. I don’t know the answer I’m afraid but wanted to say I really sympathise with you - what a situation to be in.

lannistunut · 14/09/2021 07:08

Ha, I am thinking the same! I took a job as needed more hours but the team is known to be depressing to work for, and has definitely lived up to expectations! All you can do is keep your head down and escape IMO. Changing culture is extremely hard work, requires senior buy-in and is itself awful to go through.

MMMarmite · 14/09/2021 07:09

Can you discipline, and ultimately fire the worst offenders if needed? Or take away their authority over the others?

I do think there are some people who are not willing to change, so it depends whether you have the authority to force them to.

Original poster

Cutitour · 14/09/2021 07:09

I’ve tried:

Giving them a forum to air their concerns, issues, grievances. That descended into them rehashing something which happened 10 years ago as an example of how shit the trust is.

Picking off the one or two “good” consultants and trying to get them on board. They were pulled back in line by the older consultants.

Explaining (with data) the impact on the patients and the service by their unwillingness to change with the times compared to other services, Two of them wouldn’t even look up from their phones

OP posts:

Original poster

Cutitour · 14/09/2021 07:11

I can’t discipline them as I’m not clinical. We are supposed to work together not in opposition but that just doesn’t happen.

The senior clinical leads have washed their hands of them - they really do have an awful reputation

OP posts:

MMMarmite · 14/09/2021 07:15

@Cutitour

I can’t discipline them as I’m not clinical. We are supposed to work together not in opposition but that just doesn’t happen.

The senior clinical leads have washed their hands of them - they really do have an awful reputation

If you can't discipline them and no one else is willing to, sounds like a lost cause to me

AtlasPine · 14/09/2021 07:16

They don’t deserve their jobs frankly. They have a professional responsibility to work towards effective communication and patient care.

It sounds like you are very alone here. If you aren’t getting good support from your seniors then maybe it is time to look elsewhere for your own sanity. This could really drag you under.

Michellebops · 14/09/2021 07:16

That's awful and I'm sorry you're in an awful situation, not helped by the current situations

In my experience they all need split up.

They all sound like workplace bullies which need to be stopped and a wee reminder about the "care" profession they are working in.

If they're not going to step up and put patients first rather than their egos then they all need served with a disciplinary notice.

I've a friend who's NHS and some of the stories I have heard are absolutely awful.

KhoshkaKatya · 14/09/2021 07:20

Yes, some teams can’t be turned around.

And you don’t have effective tools to turn that team round. That kind of entrenchment needs stick as well as carrot really.

Unless you can see retirements coming, just wash your hands if it. Exit interview might be your only shot at any change.

Spandang · 14/09/2021 07:24

How can you manage a team if you can’t discipline them? (Genuine question)

Is there another route you could go down? If the way they speak to the team is disgusting, can you approach HR about that from a ‘I’m concerned it’s only a matter of time before someone comes to you with a bullying or harassment complaint’ perspective?

If they’re leaving patients to suffer - can you refer or report that on?

How far do you want to go? Because, if it’s a department that doesn’t work, filled with people nobody wants to work alongside, neglecting patients and bullying juniors, then frankly…it sounds like you should be going above senior clinicians…it’s institutional, they are being allowed to carry on like that. I’d be thinking board or whistleblowing policy if that was my employer.

PhoboPhobia · 14/09/2021 07:27

It’s an awful environment to be in day in day out. I left a role managing a GP practice for the same reasons. I had managed two practices before and the GPS were mostly great to work with. Moving to this one was a complete culture shock and I felt powerless.

I’d leave and as @KhoshkaKatya says, put it all in your exit interview paperwork.

godmum56 · 14/09/2021 07:33

@Spandang

How can you manage a team if you can’t discipline them? (Genuine question)

If they’re leaving patients to suffer - can you refer or report that on?

Nailed it absolutely. I have turned teams around in my time but you need the power to sanction if its needed, or at least the power to institute the process and the total support of whoever does have that power. And yes time to blow the whistle assuming you have solid evidence.

careerchangeperhaps · 14/09/2021 07:39

I used to work in a similar situation (also NHS). It was awful and I did end up leaving. All of the managers had just accepted that nothing would change until certain consultants had retired.

DomPom47 · 14/09/2021 07:44

Get some anonymous feedback about them and read it to them. Do they know how shit their reputation is? I would actively get as many complaints about them as possible and then pass it up the chain of command. How can you be in that role and pass by a patient who is waiting as it’s not your job. Very bloody caring.

DateLoaf · 14/09/2021 07:48

Treat the three hours unclerked as a near miss, add it to the department risk register. Bring it up at your department’s risk management review meetings with hospital higher ups. As a team you would need to bring mitigations to that risk after such an incident. The culture sounds awful and as always that is affecting quality and productivity or in your case patient safety and care. It will affect staff retention as you know yourself unfortunately. Your choice if you stay or go though. You’d need very senior management support and robust transparent processes to deal with this crap if you stay. Is that in place?

Original poster

Cutitour · 14/09/2021 07:52

One consultant is retiring. 3 of the old guard aren’t going anywhere, the junior cons are firmly led by the older consultants.

I did an anonymous 360 feedback exercise for the unit as a whole. It was completely dismissed by the team and again harking back to issues from years before

OP posts:

Toomuchis · 14/09/2021 07:53

Can you weaponise your risk management process? Log everything as a risk. Let other adjacent teams know that you're receptive to complaints and then let rip. Your team is going to look dreadful, publicly, but it might force the issue. I'd keep reminding your more junior consultants of your expectations. Give people like the person in the wheelchair PALS contact details and encourage them to report. Your team is dangerous.

Or you could quit (which in all honesty is what I would do!)

Original poster

Cutitour · 14/09/2021 07:53

And the feedback was awful

OP posts:

Mariell · 14/09/2021 08:04

I wouldn’t waisted my time, energy, emotions and risk my sanity working with them and would look for another job ASAP.

I wouldn’t see that as a failure on my part or running away but accept that no one was going to be able to make a difference and that I had given it my best shot.

AnneElliott · 14/09/2021 08:05

How high do you need to go before someone can discipline them? I agree with pp about whistleblowing. In fact I'd put it all in writing to the person who does have the power, and stress the risks to patients etc. Once it's in writing it's disclosable at inquiries etc.

Bonheurdupasse · 14/09/2021 08:09

Appreciate you don’t want to give too much detail so possibly my understanding is not right.
But

Why would consultants need to “clerk” a patient?
Are there no nurses, or admin staff?

I’m only familiar with working practices in hospitals in a couple of countries on the continent so appreciate it might be different in the UK.

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