Population Matters

[onlychildhamster]

My local fair had a Population Matters booth and I talked to the volunteer manning the booth. He said their policy was that they thought people should have small families or one less child. I broadly agree with this i.e. planning to have an only child.

I am confused about one thing though. I thought that having 2 children would be fine from an environmental perspective as you are just replacing you and your partner. But having read about in greater detail, it seems like scientists are saying population reduction is the way to beat climate change, www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-11-05/scientists-call-for-population-control-in-mass-climate-alarm so doesn't that mean that we should be aiming for 0 children or 1 child and the max 2 children is for exceptional circumstances. My DH also said that even though replacement rate is officially 2.05 for the UK (higher in developing countries due to higher child mortality), the fact that we live so long in the UK means 2 children is 'adding to the population'. What do you all think of this?

Disclaimer: I don't advocate for any coercive measures to control population nor is this a snipe at anyone who has 3 or more children (we can't return children, this is just a discussion about FUTURE children).

Well the UK fertility rate is below 2 but this creates other problems.
There is a reason China is now pushing a 3-child policy.

@moppat China is thinking from an economic POV, i think. They don't have much of a welfare state and most Chinese people's pensions are their children (at least for now) so from that viewpoint, it makes sense to have more kids.

I am looking at it from an environmental perspective. I believe that it is more important than the pensions argument as climate change would cost a lot more money in the long run than the government spending more money on elderly social care and possibly importing immigrants to boost tax revenue.

Thats another thing with China; it is a monocultural society and it is very difficult for foreigners to master Mandarin so it is much harder for them to get immigrants. The UK doesn't have that problem, we need immigrants anyway.

From an environmentalist perspective it would be best if no one had children at all. However, that is against human nature and create a flurry of problems as the population ages and therefore gets more ill and reliant on other (younger) people as well as the economic problems that comes with it. A similar circumstance would happen with a dramatic fall in birth rate as seen in China. As such I agree with Population Matter’s stance.

Isn't looking at population too simplistic? I thought consumption was actually the issue, eg there's loads of people in Africa but their consumption of natural resources, food etc is v low so they aren't a problem. Whereas loads of people living in the uk or America driving lots of cars, eating loads of meat, heating houses etc is worse for the environment.

Well, it's one way to do it.

As someone who has one child out of choice it does irk me when parents of larger families lecture others about eating meat and going on planes.

Aim for half a child.

Adopt, then you can claim your child is carbon neutral

I think, apart from families whose culture or religion expects large families, that worldwide, and especially in the first world, birth rates are falling. With future worries about global warming I would think the birth rates will fall further.

I think he's right the root cause of all our climate, pollution, stripping of the planets resources problems is over population. Sadly just like with climate change no effective remedial action or strategy can be put in place whilst some of the countries refuse to cooperate. Extinction Rebellion can try to stop British workers getting on a tube train but they should be outside the Chinese Embassy demanding a global boycott of trade with China.

China is monocultural?????

That's where you lost me OP. Ridiculous thing to say.

Economies matter less in places where there is no planet to have one.

Maybe the best thing to do is randomise it and have a birth lottery?

Thomas Malthus was predicting over population back in the 1700’s. His Malthusian growth model predicted resources running out leading to war , famine and disease. It’s nothing new and it will happen. What he didn’t envisage is technology and just how good we are at using resources.

The only way to sort out the planet would be to go full on dictatorship with harsh measures.

@Alonelonelylonersbadidea

www.fpri.org/article/1999/10/china-monocultural-paradigm/

It might not be correct how they treat their ethnic minorities but it is their reality. Also many groups like the Manchu are super assimilated and have been so for hundreds of years. I am fluent in mandarin and as I wasn't 'born there', I would still have a tough time assimilating. Different to be an expat in a big city like Shanghai I suppose which can be easily done. Whereas in UK/USA, there are established immigrant communities in all cities and most towns.

@Waxonwaxoff0

Well, it's one way to do it.

As someone who has one child out of choice it does irk me when parents of larger families lecture others about eating meat and going on planes.

Surely you “irk” someone who has no children out of choice but one holiday a year.

@OnlyFoolsnMothers I don't lecture people about climate change while ignoring my own hypocrisy though.

[quote Waxonwaxoff0]@OnlyFoolsnMothers I don't lecture people about climate change while ignoring my own hypocrisy though.[/quote]
I’m just pointing out that you clearly chose to have one child because you wanted 1 but could forgo any more- everyone has their own limits but we can all still try and do out bit

Yes, we can try and do our bit. But it is hypocritical when people who have multiple children shame others for wanting to go on a foreign holiday.

@Waxonwaxoff0

Yes, we can try and do our bit. But it is hypocritical when people who have multiple children shame others for wanting to go on a foreign holiday.

Oh well that human nature- like people preaching about mixing or vaccines but won’t isolate or vice verses. Everyone has their lines in the sand, for some it’s air travel for others it’s reproducing

@Waxonwaxoff0 I wish I could give up air travel but my parents live 8 time zones away :(

I don't drive. I try to eat vegetarian, planning to have 1 child, recycle.

Well, yes, from an environmental perspective, obviously one less child is always better. So one is better than two. Zero is better than one. If environment is your primary concern don't have any children!

For me, it's more nuanced as I don't think we can prevent the eventual, (not the day after tomorrow, but maybe sooner than one might think), demise of humanity. I'd just like it to be as pleasant as possible for as many people as possible for the time we have left and also balancing that with damage done to the planet and mitigating that. But the theory is that the planet will be just fine. It's humans who might be in trouble (plus wildlife). So my main concern is making the planet not too bad for the foreseeable. That requires younger generations to care for the elderly. We have an old population here. Arguably we live a bit too long sometimes. We need younger people to care for this population. Not physically, (although yes, that too), but economically and also in providing energy and food. You cannot work the fields at 95 with a handful of youngsters because we all stop having kids.

You're right we produce more carbon per person here too. A very large family in parts of Africa would produce less than a single, CHILDFREE westerner. So it isn't purely a numbers game.

People hate these arguments because they prefer the low intellect version "stop having babies, yous are all selfish" blah blah.

Awaiting the arrival of a certain poster any minute to say just that! These threads are nothing new and they attract some absolute dumb dumbs I'm afraid.

I always think about this as someone who is infertile going to hopefully undergo IVF. Am I going against the natural order of the world?

@juneybean

I always think about this as someone who is infertile going to hopefully undergo IVF. Am I going against the natural order of the world?

One of the shoutiest environmentalists I've ever met who always said having babies was the worst thing you could do for the planet, has just been through several rounds of IVF to have his first child. Basically, people can judge you as long as it suits them. When they want something themselves, they can suddenly have a change of heart.

In the nineties, a good friend of mine who was one of the early IVF babies in the eighties, was told by her preacher that she couldn't go to heaven as she had no soul. Some people just love to be spiteful and doom us all. The preacher is one nasty piece of work. I've met him since.

Have babies, don't have babies, someone will judge you either way!

Good luck with your IVF journey

@onlychildhamster interesting link. Thanks for that. I think my experience is probably coloured by living in a more multicultural part of China then.
Interestingly my overseas Chinese friends managed to integrate very well and I've never heard of it being difficult. In my experience China is very accepting of overseas Chinese. But again it's such a big place that it is hard to generalise.
Thanks again!

OP, it's a difficult truth, and posting something like this on a parenting site a controversial for a multitude of reasons.

Trying to discuss the environmental impacts of population growth on MN is like trying to discuss the environmental impacts of digital currencies on r/Bitcoin.

@Ylvamoon

OP, it's a difficult truth, and posting something like this on a parenting site a controversial for a multitude of reasons.

Yes, I agree. It's funny how many of these threads we get though. But then, there are people here who aren't parents, so 🤷‍♀️

I think adoption is an option for people who are very against bringing more DCs into the population. It has its own challenges though, clearly. It's good that we can discuss this though and that we do have options now. And I would think people who care about the environment first and foremost would not have children at all.

I've explained my position, and I'm very secure in my views though and studied this area at university. And also, it's easy to be dispassionate and intellectual about it once your DCs are already here / you've already decided not to have DCs. It's when people are deciding what to do that these threads can cause upset, but it's also, probably, when they're most useful!