Whole class punishment

[morticiiiaaddams]

Does anyone agree that whole class punishments are a crap and unjust way to deal with just some children misbehaving in the class?

My 8 year old has been upset many times recently because apparently the teacher is shouting a lot in class, and when some children aren't listening or doing what they should the whole class loses time off break time or choosing time on a Friday.

I've bitten my tongue and said see how it goes, but I feel like it's the last straw tonight. They've brought several certificates home saying what a great job they've done on various subjects , yet they are stressed to blazes because they are worried what will happen tomorrow if other kids don't behave again. Why are children who work hard and behave being punished because of other children?

Why not reward the children who are doing as they are asked, and take away from those who aren't?

I don't want to be that parent. I get that teaching is hard especially at the moment, but I can't let my poor kid keep feeling anxious and deflated because no matter what they do they are at the mercy of other kids when it comes to class treats and getting their full break time.

It's not a terrible strategy if used once a year when you don't know who is the perpetrator.

It is a terrible strategy when used frequently.

Thanks again lots of interesting points of view.

Ultimately though I don't think it's ever ok to inflict a punishment on kids that have done absolutely nothing wrong.

My dd had this with a teacher. She dished out keeping the whole class at break, and punish the good kids too. We brought it up with her at a parents’ evening and said ‘we seem to be getting reports that your class are really badly behaved as they are all held back during breaks’. She was very sheepish with her answer. Worse as dh is a deputy chair of governors for the school. Told her we weren’t happy about her technique.
It’s counter productive and shows lack of control.

I’ve just complained about a similar issue with my daughter’s teachers. Based on the response I got from the DHT, I wish I’d complained much earlier!

I think that whole class punishments are generally inappropriate and breed resentment from the well-behaved children so YANBU. It could be the teacher needs support with the class but context is all. I think teachers are sometimes caught between a rock and a hard place though as parents want a well-ordered classroom and they may be doing all they can to enforce it from their point of view. But imo positive discipline is almost always the best in a classroom.

Maybe mention it to the classroom teacher first. Then take it to key stage leader if it carries on as a last resort.

Copied from: @50Namechercanged

It's not acceptable for teachers to shout at children - if email the head, copying the chair of governors and lodge a formal complaint so it's documented and if they don't do anything then escalate to offstead

True, shouting is a sign of loss of control. Raising of voice in a targeted way can be good. Why not raise this with God too??!! 🙄
No wonder teacher retention is so low.

The teacher is shouting and doing this whole class punishment simply because she is unprofessional. She doesn't know how to set authority, manage a subset misbehaving kids. I would complain

@Namechercanged

If you feel you need to issue sanctions to a whole class because some of them are making noises when you're writing on the board, then I think you've lost control.

Are you joking? Or do you have no experience of teaching?

No, I'm not joking, nor am I a teacher. But that doesn't mean I can't have an opinion based on my understanding of basic human psychology.

If one kid is constantly disruptive, they may well be acting up to get attention. Imposing whole class sanctions will exclude them still further, making them less, not more, likely to behave as a positive member of the class. If everyone hates them anyway, they may as well act badly.

For the kids who didn't misbehave but get punished anyway, they will resent you and may well feel that there is no benefit at all to them behaving well, given that you're going to punish them anyway.

That's why they're shit. What is the point of imposing a punishment if it isn't going to ameliorate the problem you're trying to solve?

I remember from my primary school days a couple of instances when 'whole class' punishments were dished out because of one boy's behaviour and there was no doubt to the teacher who had misbehaved. The school run a house point system and on 2 occasions all the house points from the house this boy belonged in where removed. All the points. And yes I suppose you could say that the effect was to bond the group together and influence the whole group's behaviour. Basically all the boys in the class took this child into the loos and beat the shit out of him. He was a mess. I honestly don't recall if the boys were punished - but we never had 'whole group' punishments again and S, the boy continued to misbehave. With the benefit of hindsight he probably did have a special need of some sort.

Even one instance of 'whole class' punishment sends the wrong message to the kids towing the line (unless the whole class have misbehaved and badly ). I'd be mentioning this to the head, not as a full compliant but as a 'I'm disappointed the teacher did this' type comment.

Gosh DPotter. That poor boy.

I know Giant

At the time I thought he deserved it - I was 10. He wasn't a very nice person (bully & physical shoving, snatching stuff from you, etc) but even he's younger brother joined in the beating, the 'group bonding' was so strong. When I read 'Lord of the Flies' at secondary, it felt very real.

And do you know what his 'crime' was? OK this was probably the last of a string of bad behaviour during the day, but the trigger for the points removed was S leaning back his chair on the back legs. The teacher had told him not to a couple of times, and then she lost her rag and removed the house points. Next break he was beaten up.

Bloody hell that's awful @DPotter. But does illustrate exactly the point I was making.

They don't work.

I think the idea is so that there is also social pressure for children to behave, which is great in theory, but it can mean that kids with certain SEN get turned on by their peers

@Branleuse

I think the idea is so that there is also social pressure for children to behave, which is great in theory, but it can mean that kids with certain SEN get turned on by their peers

But I don't think it does work, that's the point. The disruptive kid is not going to be clasped to the bosom of their classmates if their behaviour has just meant they've all lost their playtime. Children typically don't have that level of sophistication in their thinking. They're just going to be (rightly) pissed off. Or worse, actively violent.

There's usually a reason for a kid acting up. Most of them (most of all of us!) want to be liked by their peers.

Absolutely Clymene. There's a reason for behaviour and being shamed wont suddenly improve it. Being rejected by friends will just make it worse if anything.

That's why they're shit. What is the point of imposing a punishment if it isn't going to ameliorate the problem you're trying to solve?

Getting a whole class to write statements means I find out who did the "crime". Therefore I can deal with it appropriately.

There are times when adding 1-2mins on the board to calm a noisy class works wonders.

Whole class punishments are fine if rarely used (1-2 times per year).

I would complain each time now if that was my child (ex teacher). Its the sort of thing they feel the injustice of and remember for a lomg time!

Collective punishments are against the Geneva Convention.

Afraid to say I will 100% be that parent who who happy argues with any teach who does who class punishments. If you don't know who did it, don't punish the innocent. I had manh a whole class punishment. Should I as the less confident already bullied child really have to grass up the person misbehaving? It is that (and get more bullied) or have to be punished for behaving?

I will equally be holding any teacher accountable for dealing with bullies? If I ever here my child is bullying someone they sure as he'll will be punsibed and spoken too. But bully my child and you as a parent/teacher will here about it.

@Namechercanged no adding a minute or 2 on for the behaved children is wrong. Whole class punishments are wrong. Full stop. The end. Wrong.

As @AngryPrincess says against the Geneva convention.

@Namechercanged

That's why they're shit. What is the point of imposing a punishment if it isn't going to ameliorate the problem you're trying to solve?

Getting a whole class to write statements means I find out who did the "crime". Therefore I can deal with it appropriately.

There are times when adding 1-2mins on the board to calm a noisy class works wonders.

Whole class punishments are fine if rarely used (1-2 times per year).

I rest my case that you're a terrible teacher

😂 😂 😂 Yes so shit that I literally have parents begging to have their child in my class each year.

Hmmm back in the day my school were thinking of cancelling the year 6 camp because they didn't know who (one person) had committed some misdemeanor. At the parents' meeting to discuss it DF said that the last time he had heard of this approach was the Nazi destruction/murder of Lidice and Oradour and similar places.

The camp took place.

I would email asking for clarity on the behaviour policy, explaining what you’ve been told and keeping an open mind. If they come back and say yes, they do whole class detentions due to the behaviour of a few then I would write another email explaining why you don’t think that policy is effective. Keep it calm, friendly and professional.
I’m a teacher and have found that children don’t always get it exactly right when they talk to their parents. ‘Shouting’ can be a firm voice, ‘detention’ can be a minute-long chat at playtime. There is the possibility it may not be exactly as you’ve been told. Or it might - in which case I think it’s reasonable to complain. I’ve never kept a whole class in at playtime. There was one time when about 20 out of 30 behaved really badly at playtime and missed some of the next one - but the ten sensible ones still went out.

60 years ago my WHOLE primary school was made to sit cross-legged in the school hall one Friday afternoon until someone owned up to stealing something from the cloakroom. We were missing an afternoon of outdoor sport and the miscreant was supposed to become suffused with shame and stand up in front of us all and admit their crime. Needless to say, that didn't happen! My father stormed in 10 mins after the last bell and pulled me and my sister out after giving the headteacher a dressing down in front of everybody - I was dead embarrassed at the time but so proud of him later. Peer pressure rarely works.