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Can someone explain Anti-Semitism to me please?

38 replies

PyongyangKipperbang · 18/05/2021 01:50

I am not trying to enflame, I just dont get it.

I can sort of see it in a historical context where immigrant Jews did well and were resented by natives of whatever country they happened to settle in. Similar to the racism suffered by immigrants to the UK in the 50's and60's (of which my STB X MIL was one).

What I dont get is why there is still such resentment now. I was reading about the attacks in the SE and I was just thinking "Why?!" Where is this hatred coming from? What is "their" logic?

Or am I ascribing a level of intelligent thought to a group that have none?

OP posts:
Musication · 18/05/2021 02:21

Or am I ascribing a level of intelligent thought to a group that have none?

Some of it is this.

Jews are a race that have been driven out of various places and forced to settle elsewhere as immigrants. In many cases they have been quite resourceful and therefore financially successful, so people with small minds have a thing about them 'controlling everything'. Some people still think this and push it forward. It is the same attitude that you see played out all over the world towards immigrants of all types - the narrative that they are 'taking jobs and money away from natives' which is extremely flawed.

The Israel-Palestine conflict does not help at all because many people with limited understanding ascribe all Jewish people as supporters of Israel, or all Israelis as Jews. Once again this is incredibly flawed.

If Jews didn't exist the anti-semite would find a way to create them. Some people exist to hate others and minority groups will always be a target.

AMillionMilesAway · 18/05/2021 02:33

There are people who hate people who practice all kinds of faith (or none), people who hate gay people, people who hate goths and ginger people and people who hate people who support various football teams...
Basically, some people will always need a "them" to their "us", I suppose.

TaraR2020 · 18/05/2021 02:43

I think there are, astonishingly, some Christians in the world who still hold Jewish people responsible for the crucifixion.
Much of anti semitism, to me, seems to be down to inherited prejudices, racism and conspiracy theories. I grew up believing most anti semitism had been confined to history with the end of ww2 and was shocked as an adult to realise how prevalent it still is. I do struggle to understand why it is still a thing - as pp said, lots of people seem to grab any excuse to hate and to find scapegoats.

It's utterly abhorrent.

NiceGerbil · 18/05/2021 02:44

I just bought this- admittedly not started it yet it's in the pile!

But it's short and david baddiel is good.

My dip in was:

A friend of his. A friend!
Asked why is antisemitism not taken very seriously
Answer. Well, Jews are rich.

www.waterstones.com/book/jews-dont-count/david-baddiel/9780008399474

That will probably be more informative than the big row I suspect this thread will turn into...

PyongyangKipperbang · 18/05/2021 02:50

I didnt want to start a big row.

I just dont get why there is such hatred for Jews, either cultural or religious.

I think that "haters will always find something to hate" is probably the most realistic answer.

OP posts:
NiceGerbil · 18/05/2021 02:52

I have no idea why Jewish people have been so vilified and continue to be.

Shakespeare had Shylock. How long ago was that?

Loads of Jewish 'jokes' when I was growing up.

I live in a London borough with I think the biggest Jewish population in the UK.

This is not new. Bomb threats on Jewish schools. Swastikas sprayed on Jewish businesses. That sort of thing.

A big bomb I heard go off 4 miles away, years ago. Jewish charity. Saw the result on my way to work the next morning. That was a Palestinian thing. But. A Jewish charity in the UK? Really?

Anyway it's always been bad..

Strong argument that after ww2 the state of Israel was created by countries including us because they didn't really want the Jewish people who had escaped or been displaced. Contraversial probably but I think that point of view is not bananas.

xxyzz · 18/05/2021 05:39

The answer is:

a) there will always be inadequate people who want someone to bully and/or make themselves feel better than. Anyone who is different in some way - Jewish, ginger hair, whatever, will get picked on by losers. In societies that were very uniform with no other visible ethnic minorities until recently, Jews stood out.

b) 2000 years of officially-sanctioned Christian antisemitism has had a huge impact on people, who have often been influenced by this without even realising. Until the 1960s, unbelievably, the official position of the Catholic Church was that all Jews (including current living ones) were to blame for the death of Christ. This leads to Jewish people now still being attacked as 'Christ killers'.

c) Medieval antisemitism forced Jews into certain jobs like moneylending as Jews were not allowed to own land or many other jobs. This increased resentment of Jews.

d) suspicion of the 'Other' and official Church antisemitism led to belief in various antisemitic tropes (hateful lies) such as the Blood Libel (that Jews kill Christian children to use their blood to make matzos for Passover) and Jewish conspiracy theories (the most notorious is the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, an early 20th century forgery which claimed that Jews were scheming to take over the world); this still comes out in all the 'Jews control the media / banks / whatever' crap.

e) The Israel/Palestine conflict has allowed a new facet to emerge, as anti-Zionism is used as a polite way of expressing antisemitism, by those who've realised that post-Holocaust, naked antisemitism sounds crude. Hence people who call Jews 'Zios' and blame all Jews globally for any actions of Israel they dislike eg the nutters who drove around at the weekend threatening to rape Jewish women and girls.

f) Because there are such a tiny number of Jews globally ( eg in the UK, only 0.4% of the population is Jewish), many/most people will not actually know any Jews (or even if they do, not realise this, as many Jews will try not to go public as Jews because of antisemitism). So in the absence of knowledge, people will believe any old crap about Jews.

That's a very potted summary. Suffice to say it has been baked into Western culture for 2000 years and also spread to other parts of the world more recently through propaganda so many people are unaware of it and don't spot it. It's unusual compared to other forms of racism as it's common among both those nominally on the far left as well as those on the far right although it manifests itself differently - the far left blame Jews for capitalism and see Jews as arch-capitalists (like Corbyn's infamous mural) as well as blaming all Jews for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, while the far right see Jews as communists and to blame for Muslim immigration (yes really). It's all completely incoherent, but that's racism for you.

newnortherner111 · 18/05/2021 07:06

I hope as a result of the information above OP you will condemn anti-semitism if ever you witness, see or hear it.

MargaretThursday · 18/05/2021 07:13

My observation is there are two groups that it's still culturally acceptable to be racist about.
Jews-they hide behind "I'm not antisemitic, but against the Israeli government"
Gypsy/Romany/Travellers because they hide behind "I'm not against them, just don't want them anywhere near me because they all..."

BlueLobelia · 18/05/2021 07:16

@xxyzz

The answer is:

a) there will always be inadequate people who want someone to bully and/or make themselves feel better than. Anyone who is different in some way - Jewish, ginger hair, whatever, will get picked on by losers. In societies that were very uniform with no other visible ethnic minorities until recently, Jews stood out.

b) 2000 years of officially-sanctioned Christian antisemitism has had a huge impact on people, who have often been influenced by this without even realising. Until the 1960s, unbelievably, the official position of the Catholic Church was that all Jews (including current living ones) were to blame for the death of Christ. This leads to Jewish people now still being attacked as 'Christ killers'.

c) Medieval antisemitism forced Jews into certain jobs like moneylending as Jews were not allowed to own land or many other jobs. This increased resentment of Jews.

d) suspicion of the 'Other' and official Church antisemitism led to belief in various antisemitic tropes (hateful lies) such as the Blood Libel (that Jews kill Christian children to use their blood to make matzos for Passover) and Jewish conspiracy theories (the most notorious is the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, an early 20th century forgery which claimed that Jews were scheming to take over the world); this still comes out in all the 'Jews control the media / banks / whatever' crap.

e) The Israel/Palestine conflict has allowed a new facet to emerge, as anti-Zionism is used as a polite way of expressing antisemitism, by those who've realised that post-Holocaust, naked antisemitism sounds crude. Hence people who call Jews 'Zios' and blame all Jews globally for any actions of Israel they dislike eg the nutters who drove around at the weekend threatening to rape Jewish women and girls.

f) Because there are such a tiny number of Jews globally ( eg in the UK, only 0.4% of the population is Jewish), many/most people will not actually know any Jews (or even if they do, not realise this, as many Jews will try not to go public as Jews because of antisemitism). So in the absence of knowledge, people will believe any old crap about Jews.

That's a very potted summary. Suffice to say it has been baked into Western culture for 2000 years and also spread to other parts of the world more recently through propaganda so many people are unaware of it and don't spot it. It's unusual compared to other forms of racism as it's common among both those nominally on the far left as well as those on the far right although it manifests itself differently - the far left blame Jews for capitalism and see Jews as arch-capitalists (like Corbyn's infamous mural) as well as blaming all Jews for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, while the far right see Jews as communists and to blame for Muslim immigration (yes really). It's all completely incoherent, but that's racism for you.

Brilliant and comprehensive summary!

I am Jewish. When it became clear that my relationshio with DH was going to go somewhere I told him fearful of his reaction. My parents never identify themselves as jews and have taught me to never do so either (although they now go to synagogue). You will find many jews never identify themselves as such on the Census due to fear of persecution. My own ILs never knew I was Jewish in the 10 years of my marriage before they died (FIL was anti-semitic...... my DH would get incredibly distressed about it saying 'His own grandchildren are half Jewish').

The fear is very real. I have said this on another thread but I was terrified when Corbyn was in power. He allowed the anti semites to crawl back out from under the rocks. My parents live abroad and we sat down and had an actual proper plan for us leaving the UK if things got too bad if Labour got into power. I was a member of the Labour party FFS.

I have family who were in concentration camps. It's not that far back in current Modern European history that civilised countries were trying to wipe us fro the face of the earth for ever more.

longwayoff · 18/05/2021 07:18

History OP. Centuries of persecution and of being seen as Other led to anti-Semitism becoming so entrenched that now many people don't know what it is. Unless you happen to be Jewish. Agree with pp. Read David Baddiel.

Tittybittybangbang · 18/05/2021 07:20

I’ve recently read David Baddiel’s book ‘Jews Don’t Count’. You may find that useful and is short and well written.

GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER · 18/05/2021 07:23

IMO the hatred is at least partly because they are often clever and make money.
Also because in many countries in the past they were barred from a lot of occupations and so turned to moneylending, and nobody likes a moneylender.

Plus of course the ancient but still-poisonous element - one religion - or elements of it - using that as a convenient excuse for hating everybody from another.

Conflating British Jews with the Israeli state is IMO just another aspect of that hatred, with ignorance thrown in.

picklemewalnuts · 18/05/2021 07:37

I think you can be critical of the Palestine/Israel situation without being anti Semitic.

What makes it harder for me to understand is my own personal non identification of Jews as a class/group. I know Shylock is a Jewish character, but that tells me nothing about Jewish people as a whole. Equally, I know Othello is a Moor (Moore?)and it tells me nothing about all other Moors. It's a struggle then to imagine people having a hatred for a group. Clearly some do.

Another obstacle for me is exactly that ability many Jewish folk have to go under the radar- I don't get how people can be so prejudiced against someone they can't even recognise. I mean, how does that even happen? I thought I must have some inability to recognise a facial characteristic, or something.

Again, it clearly does.
It's despicable
Hard to understand.
A small minority of people are hateful idiots, I don't understand how it happens and who tolerates it.

sandgrown · 18/05/2021 07:38

Thanks for explaining this . It is exactly what I have been trying to explain to my impressionable teenage son . The Jews in this country cannot be blamed for the situation in Israel. Having travelled to Israel 40 years ago I also know that not everyone in Israel is Jewish. I had an ex who hated the local Jews for no other reason than they appeared to be successful in business !

xxyzz · 18/05/2021 07:44

@GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER

IMO the hatred is at least partly because they are often clever and make money. Also because in many countries in the past they were barred from a lot of occupations and so turned to moneylending, and nobody likes a moneylender. Plus of course the ancient but still-poisonous element - one religion - or elements of it - using that as a convenient excuse for hating everybody from another.

Conflating British Jews with the Israeli state is IMO just another aspect of that hatred, with ignorance thrown in.

While I know this post is meant well, can I say as a Jew that the stereotype that 'Jews are often clever and make money' is itself an antisemitic stereotype, and often used against Jews.

I don't think there is any evidence that Jews are any more or less 'clever' than anyone else; Judaism values the study of the Torah, hence Jewish culture values education, so Jewish kids are often encouraged to study and try hard at school. But that doesn't mean Jews are any more or less 'clever'.

Also, the stereotype of Jews being rich and making money is just that, a stereotype, often used to attack Jews. The reality is that, like anyone else, some Jews earn more and some less. I'm Jewish and sadly don't live up to that stereotype - still can't afford to buy a house anywhere. In fact, as many Jews were refugees who lost all their possessions, many Jews have had to start without any support from their families or any inherited wealth. So I find this image of Jews as largely rich and privileged quite upsetting and untrue.

FightingtheFoo · 18/05/2021 11:11

Jews are always the bogeyman (see pic). To the Soviets we were hated for being capitalists, to the Nazis we were hated for being communists, now we're hated for being Zionists.

Every country I've ever been to has had some history of Jew hatred. Even the UK. We were banished from here in the 1300s then let back in a while later. Then under King James, he contemplated rounding us all up and dumping us in Ireland (thereby killing two birds with one stone cause he hated the Irish too).

The Holocaust isn't even the last attempt to annihilate us. 1970s Iran is.

Can someone explain Anti-Semitism to me please?
Love51 · 18/05/2021 11:36

I think the Jews as money grubbing trope came about precisely due to discrimination. I'm not sure on the dates, hopefully someone can fill in, but basically with any trade of profession where you had to join a professional body (law, medicine) closed to them, Jewish people engaged in financial services. And to this day we dislike people who take our money (I had an Inland Revenue officer in the family, who would just vaguely say 'civil service'. Traffic wardens are also unpopular!) It somehow got translated as Jewish people being greedy (Shakespeare didn't help) and having unwarranted wealth and power. Add in that the Orthodox community tend to stick together (although no more so than other religious groups) and mistrust developed.
I'm not sure what to do about it. It seems crazy it is so widespread. I have non observant Jewish family and I remember as a child thinking why would anyone discriminate against that branch of my family rather than any other branch.
I sort of understand why a megalomaniac dictator would need scapegoats to manipulate the rest of the population. I don't really get why normal people going about their lives would need to hate another group of people who have some very slightly different customs around coming of age and food. It doesn't strike me that they get a lot out of it, yet it continues.

Musication · 18/05/2021 11:55

@MargaretThursday

My observation is there are two groups that it's still culturally acceptable to be racist about. Jews-they hide behind "I'm not antisemitic, but against the Israeli government" Gypsy/Romany/Travellers because they hide behind "I'm not against them, just don't want them anywhere near me because they all..."
100% this. I'm not anti-semitic but....
NotDavidTennant · 18/05/2021 12:06

Because of stereotypes and prejudices that have been passed down blindly from generation to generation.

People who have never knowingly met a Jew but who still can tell you all the bad things about Jews, because that's what they've been told by someone who was told by someone else who was told by someone else, etc, etc.

NutellaEllaElla · 18/05/2021 12:18

I recently listened to David Baddiel talk about his book Jews Don't Count, on a podcast called the Boyce of reason, i recommend it.

MedicineHat · 18/05/2021 15:57

@xxyzz just coming on to say exactly what you said. Stereotypes, even ones people think are positive, just perpetuate the problem

Bidmass · 18/05/2021 19:01

@MargaretThursday
You CAN be against the Israeli government and not anti semitic. There are a number of Jews who are critical of the Israeli government....

GintyMcGinty · 18/05/2021 19:05

Why are people racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, disablist, ageist, islamaphobic, anti-catholic, anti-protestant?

Anti-semitism is no different to other prejudices and bigotries.

Ignorance, lack of education, lack of intelligence, fear. Could be peer or cultural pressure. They may have been brought up to hate others.

MargaretThursday · 18/05/2021 19:11

[quote Bidmass]@MargaretThursday
You CAN be against the Israeli government and not anti semitic. There are a number of Jews who are critical of the Israeli government....[/quote]
I never said you couldn't. What I said is people hide anti-Semitism behind that to make it culturally acceptable.