Is the government really going to leave people in these Grenfell-style blocks?

[Eastie77]

Very sad to see a block of flats close to me erupt in flames today. It took 125 firefighters to bring it under control. It is of course fitted with Grenfell style cladding and residents cannot afford the huge bill to remove it.

I don't understand how developers can be let of the hook like this or how any government can leave people in these death traps. Surely it's only a matter of time before there are casualties on the scale we saw at Grenfell?

I agree, it’s very unfortunate, but things like this happen to people - it’s a normal part of life.

The government can’t be expected to step in and fix every problem that arises in society.

That list VeganVeal

Those residents relied on building control - if you can't rely on safety standards what is the average person supposed to do? icaveat emptor is meaningless if the original standards were wrong - are we supposed to assess cladding materials ourselves?

The Government have a lot more leverage over those businesses than the man/woman on the street - they should step in. They could start by donating the £2.5 million payment from the developers to the Conservative party.

@GreenWillow

I agree, it’s very unfortunate, but things like this happen to people - it’s a normal part of life.

The government can’t be expected to step in and fix every problem that arises in society.

Other countries don't allow that type of cladding and certainly don't allow self cert for fire safety issues. If government choices lead to dangerous situations, why exactly shouldn't the government help out?

Caveat emptor.

What happens in other countries is irrelevant.

@GreenWillow

I agree, it’s very unfortunate, but things like this happen to people - it’s a normal part of life.

The government can’t be expected to step in and fix every problem that arises in society.

Sorry, what exactly is normal part of life..?

@MrsTerryPratchett thank you for your post. I've been trying to think of how to word what I want to say but as my family is in one of these flats I feel too emotional about it to trust that I can word it well.

I wouldn't have been able to imagine without living it how being in this situation could impact our mental health this much. It's life ruining for us and it's hard to not let that affect our children when we're in a too small flat we can't sell and is a potential fire death trap. We're just waiting for the bill to come to go bankrupt and be homeless essentially.

@GreenWillow

This is a terrible situation, but it’s not the role of the government to pay to fix this - unfortunately it is a matter for the leaseholders/freeholder and the developers.

People who own their own homes are already pretty far up the social pecking order, so you think we should be spending taxpayers money on them over, for example, women in refuges, or rough sleepers?

Many of these companies used materials and techniques they knew to be unsafe.. The did this because it was cheaper and they could. Government relaxed many of the building regulations that might have prevented it being so easy for.companies to.use cheaper ( but unsafe) materials. The companies should be held to account but only the government can do that, and they wont as they want the companies to keep building things cheaply and fast .Simple as that

@Notonthestairs

That list VeganVeal

Those residents relied on building control - if you can't rely on safety standards what is the average person supposed to do? icaveat emptor is meaningless if the original standards were wrong - are we supposed to assess cladding materials ourselves?

The Government have a lot more leverage over those businesses than the man/woman on the street - they should step in. They could start by donating the £2.5 million payment from the developers to the Conservative party.

I'm following the inquiry quite closely and it is shocking just how many safeguards were left to assumptions that someone else was picking up the slack.

But nobody was.

It's a whole mess of half arsery and "i just assumed..." that led to Grenfell being clad in the ACM, along with the other failed elements noted upthread.

@GreenWillow

I agree, it’s very unfortunate, but things like this happen to people - it’s a normal part of life.

The government can’t be expected to step in and fix every problem that arises in society.

What do you mean by “things like this”? the words you are looking for are “avoidable mass tragedies” because that’s what these are.

Avoidable mass tragedies should not be considered a normal and acceptable part of life. Although perhaps they are if there’s little chance of you being a victim?

I think part of the problem is that many of the developers have either gone bust, or ‘rebranded’ themselves to distance themselves from this situation.

Oh well if they’ve rebranded that’s fine then! Maybe they people living there can rebrand themselves out the situation too. Or there can be some move towards corporate responsibility to actually not having people live in known death traps. And dont get me started on personal responsibility.

I’m talking about the having to find thousands of pounds to fix a problem that you have found yourself in, namely living in an unmortgageable property.

Having a waking watch is a solution here, but the homeowners don’t want to have to pay for this.

My point is, these people are already among life’s winners. It’s unreasonable to divert any more taxpayer money to fund this.

You must be able to see that the idea of people in private rented accommodation, who will never be able to buy property themselves, being expected to subsidise those far better off than them just isn’t reasonable.

Yes. They'll leave them to die. Those are poor people.

Are they? The new fire was in a block where a 2 bed flat goes for £750k. The papers are saying "East London" and "tower block" and people outside London are assuming poverty, but Canary Wharf is a very affluent area.

I still think the developers should be responsible for their own shoddy standards of course.

You must be able to see that the idea of people in private rented accommodation, who will never be able to buy property themselves, being expected to subsidise those far better off than them just isn’t reasonable.

Which is why this won't happen. Lower tax payers don't even pay for themselves. Only over a certain (fairly high) income level do people become net payers into the system. It's a great system.

And if you think the Tories aren't paying for this in order to protect lower paid renters you're off your bloody rocker. They're protecting their rich mates and themselves.

I'm so sorry @Thereoncewasababy I wish you the very very best.

Personally I'd do anything to not own my flat and be in rented. I 'own' 5%. We used a one off family gift and the help to buy scheme to buy we are not high earners. I feel it's insulting to imply I'm in a privileged position living in one of these flats now.

Yes, they are.

I lived in a tower block in the 1980’s and you weren’t allowed any gas appliances. This was scrapped when gas and electric utilities were privatised and gas is allowed in tower blocks now. Madness!

@Thereoncewasababy

Personally I'd do anything to not own my flat and be in rented. I 'own' 5%. We used a one off family gift and the help to buy scheme to buy we are not high earners. I feel it's insulting to imply I'm in a privileged position living in one of these flats now.

You were in a privileged position to be able to buy at all though.

I’m genuinely really sorry that you find yourself in this position, but you chose the flat and went ahead with the purchase...you had the choice not to.

The point I am making is that it is not the responsibility of the government to save people from the consequences of their choices.

The government saves people from the consequences of their actions thousands of times a day. Why do you keep repeating that?

So if we go up in flames due to shoddy unregulated cladding that was our choice?

I know they do, and I don’t think it’s a good thing.

We need to encourage people to think a lot more carefully about their choices. If people know that the taxpayer will ultimately bail them out, there is no incentive to take personal responsibility.

@Thereoncewasababy

So if we go up in flames due to shoddy unregulated cladding that was our choice?

Nobody’s going up in flames if a waking watch is in place.

People just don’t want to pay for this themselves.

It is a National Disgrace.
The Government should put not only the cladding, but the other safety issues right as a matter of urgency, then use some of their fancy lawyers to chase down the developers who made the morally incomprehensible decisions, and the building regulations people who signed them off, to recoup the money back into the public purse.
They (those responsible) shouldn't just be allowed to get away with it, but there is an absolute urgency about getting it fixed. So fix it first and work on getting those responsible to pay it back over the coming years.

So I have to train as a structural engineer to buy a flat while government and business just sit on their arses saying, "it's your fault if you don't know the cladding is shoddy"? Really.

You'd take us back to the Victorian era. Work in the unsafe mill or starve. Your choice. Lick the lead paint, you should have known. Should be able to assess risk yourself.

@BackforGood

It is a National Disgrace. The Government should put not only the cladding, but the other safety issues right as a matter of urgency, then use some of their fancy lawyers to chase down the developers who made the morally incomprehensible decisions, and the building regulations people who signed them off, to recoup the money back into the public purse. They (those responsible) shouldn't just be allowed to get away with it, but there is an absolute urgency about getting it fixed. So fix it first and work on getting those responsible to pay it back over the coming years.

It isn’t that simple though.

All the fancy lawyering in the world can’t get past the fact that insolvent companies cannot pay their dues.

Do you not think this avenue has been explored?

There was a waking watch on the block of flats that was on fire yesterday and people were still hospitalised. I think you're justifying the unjustifiable. There's children living in these unsafe flats all over the country.