Is this really how anyone learns languages?

[Anycrispsleft]

Our kids are back at school and I'm back learning German. I've been round this block a few times - I already speak it well enough to hold a conversation, watch TV, write a letter etc - I passed the B2 level a few years ago and I am probably about C1 level on a good day (and plan to sit the exam some time this year). But once again, cracking the books open, I'm asking myself is this really how anyone learns a language?

The first thing I had to learn about today was genitive attribute in nominal and verbal style sentences, and how they replace the subject in passive sentences, and the accusative supplement in active ones.

If that meant very little to you, take heart, because I've been learning German on and off for years and meant precious little to me either. It helped when I went on a German language learning forum and found out that "accusative supplement"/"Adjektivergänzung" actually means "object" like 99 percent of the time but 1 percent of the time something more complicated that I don't need to care about. This is a course for adult learners of German as a second language, it's not an academic course, and the level of grammar terminology you need to get your head round just seems too high to me. If this is the standard, and it is, I just wonder how it is supposed to work for people who come here to work, who don't necessarily have university qualifications or a formal knowledge of grammar (of their own language or of German) but who still want to be able to speak, eventually, like a native? Like I know people say "just immerse yourself in the culture", it's never worked that well for me, it helps passive understanding but to speak and write I need to sit down with an exercise book and practise. I did Duolingo and that was great, but it only goes to about B2 level and I've finished it ages ago. I guess I will crack on. At least I know what the modern fancy word is for an object now!

[baffled]

I didn’t even understand your post in English, OP.

• Akkusativergänzung, not Adjektivergänzung, if anyone's paying close attention!

I don't think anyone can "speak like a native" in a foreign language unless they have immersed themselves for a long period of time among speakers of that language, either in country or otherwise. I think there are many people who aren't ever going to speak like a native even living in the country, like many second language speakers of English don't. But they can manage perfectly well and have interesting conversations in the language. And that's ok.

Depends on what type of learner you are. I’m definitely a very grammar based person. I speak French and Spanish fluently but I am more a writing/reading person so for me it was very much a product of sitting down with massive textbooks and learning the names of all different grammar concepts and then applying this to the language.

My closest friends from uni had different approaches and they are typically stronger than me in terms of oral language but weaker when it comes to writing/reading. So I suppose it depends what your focus is!

I don't think these things are that helpful without context. I also live in Germany and have got to the conversational level just by immersion but I defo need to take classes now.

I used to teach esl and it's the same the other way around. A good teacher keeps the grammar terms sparing and uses real life examples of when you'd use one form over the other. At that point the name of the different terms helps simply for googling for further info or if they go into another class. But it's not necessary to know all of the terms as long as you know when to use one form vs another.

Hmm. I've worked in language training for a long time and one thing that has always struck me is the high level of grammatical knowledge that is commonplace for many foreign learners of e.g. English, compared to English-speaking learners of other languages. I think in many countries the explicit teaching of grammar- for the native language as well as for foreign language - is much more prominent than it is here. I've had many conversations with e.g. Russian teachers who have despaired of the state of grammar knowledge amongst their British students.

And completely agree with @HarrietteNightingale - one of the first things my lecturers at uni told us was ‘never strive to sound like a native because it just won’t happen’ and it really bloody took the pressure off!

I can't learn from books, at all. When I was learning Japanese we didn't have YouTube etc, or live online lessons, so it was all book related or person to person when I lived out there. now you can have live lessons online with people, which I find helps massively. Netflix, if you have it, also have an add in whereby you can add a language sub to any programme/movie- I've been using that a lot as I find pictoral situations easier to remember in a situational contest.

I only know the names of all the various tenses from my Spanish A Level, I've never been taught them in English. For example I wouldn't say to dc 'oh you need to use the pluperfect' - I think native speakers know something sounds wrong but they don't necessarily know the correct grammatical terminology.

Duolingo apparently teaches languages like you would learn as a child and it's all repetition and very little grammar. I like rules so I find it hard to extrapolate what I know from Duolingo into another sentence.

If it's any consolation, I'm a native speaker and still have no clue what you're on about. I am fluent in several languages and speak English as if it was my mother tongue. The only reliable way for me to learn is to read native books, listen to the language on the media and actually speak to native speakers.

Modern language learner here to degree level.

Sorry OP - if you don't understand the fundamental building block of German grammar that is nominative / accusative / dative / genitive, unfortunately your German is likely not as good as you think... Your errors here will be very evident to German speakers.

I agree with other posters that how you learn a language will be different according to personality type - and most people are not going to start with the "pure" grammar before learning vocab and phrases to be going on with, etc.

I personally don't understand how people learn via Duolingo - it's just learning parroting. Good as a starting point, but not a substitute for hard grammatical graft.

I'm learning a language (a fairly uncommonly studied one) for fun on Duolingo and I agree it's more of a starting point. I think a range of things is best, including regular practice with native speakers, watching and reading media and also studying the building blocks of the language to some extent to understand how it works.

I am also fluent in two other languages as they were my degree subjects, and have an A level in another. DP is learning one of the languages I am fluent in on Duolingo, and he's supplementing it with other stuff, and I am acting as his language teacher, more or less. It's spoken in a country where we like to holiday and he's looking forward to practicing there when we can, I'm also lining up a language practice partner for him in the country who he can have regular Skype practice with.

I’m German/English bilingual and have been since birth. IMO, the only way you can ever sound like a “native” is to speak the language from a really early age and then you need to spend some time living there, ideally under the age of 10; it’s an accent and a slang thing, most adult learners never sound quite natural. My wonderful DF, who’s lived in this country for the last 20 years and on and off for the last 35, still doesn’t sound like a native... Fluency of course is completely possible and I do find grammar helpful for this. Be careful though, most “book” language learners have much weaker speaking skills.

People learn differently. I once learned Urdu from a lovely teacher who couldn't explain grammar for the life of him. Yet he had successfully taught Urdu for years.

These days the grammar approach is less popular (in the UK anyway) and the immersive approach more popular.

I am grammar learner. I need to know the rules and the "why" of things so I can confidenly build my own sentences. Other people learn differently, but mimicking what they hear.

Both ways are legitimate, you just need to go with the style that works for you.

Yes but German grammar is horribly complicated. That said, native German speakers, much like native English speakers are often a bit more relaxed when speaking.

@CandyLeBonBon

Yes but German grammar is horribly complicated. That said, native German speakers, much like native English speakers are often a bit more relaxed when speaking.

Ain't that the truth - I have heard a German say "Weil ich will ins Kino gehen" but I am sure they would never write that!

Exactly

Breaking down the language in a mechanical way, being able to name each part, and then learning how to assemble/reassemble it like that is very tricky. It's certainly not how we learn our native language.

I remember doing A level French a hundred years ago. The new topic one day was "The Subjunctive Mood". A classmate piped up: "Miss, I don't even know that in English!"

Yeah sorry, "native speaker" was the wrong term. I sort of meant fluent, although not just that... I'm fairly fluent, but within a smaller range of ways to phrase things than I would like, if that makes sense? I would just like it to feel more natural to me, even if it still sounds non native to others.

I do know the basic grammatical terms, like, yes, I know what the cases are... but I've never heard the object being referred to as Akkusativergänzung in any of my German grammar books up to this point. It sounds like jargon to me, the equivalent of the English fronted adverbials that were confounding everyone during lockdown.

I learned by accident/immersion. My nanny (not as posh as it sounds honest!) was french and if I needed something like a drink or the toilet, I would have to ask in french (agreed with parents) so I started learning around 3-4
Which was great until I moved schools in y9 to discover they had all been doing German since y7 oh and it was a compulsory GCSE so best learn fast

Ain't that the truth - I have heard a German say "Weil ich will ins Kino gehen" but I am sure they would never write that!

I don't think I've ever heard someone put the verb to the end in everyday speech, only in classrooms! On the morning telly they tend to be better though (also the only place you ever hear subjunctiv 1 in speech)

I often look things up in Irish to find myself lost as to what the grammatical terms mean. I don't think immersion works unless you're actually immersed. Daily classes are not immersion.

I'm German but I have no idea what an Akkusativergänzung is 😁. In my experience (degree and professional career in modern languages) the best way to learn them is by immersing yourself in the culture. So ideally you should go and live there for a while. Also, whilst that's not possible, seek out local German groups, watch movies and read books / newspapers in German. My kids are growing up bilingual and I never practice grammar with them; they just pick up the correct forms by using the language every day.

@Anycrispsleft

Ain't that the truth - I have heard a German say "Weil ich will ins Kino gehen" but I am sure they would never write that!

I don't think I've ever heard someone put the verb to the end in everyday speech, only in classrooms! On the morning telly they tend to be better though (also the only place you ever hear subjunctiv 1 in speech)

Weil ich will ins Kino gehen is colloquial and quite common in spoken language nowadays.

I think if grammar helps you learn that's great, but I wish people wouldn't be so insistent on it.

I'm an academic and writer, and I still don't know half the terms in my son's English grammar book.
I always made the most progress in learning languages when I stepped back from the grammar, I find a little bit goes a long way.