Marriage certificates: What happens if you don’t know whether your father is alive or dead? (Plus when will mothers’ details be included on marriage certificates?)

[RickiTarr]

Not something applicable to my own situation, but was just having a chat with a work acquaintance and this issue is apparently looming for someone she knows.

(Presumably she/they will find out the answer in due course but I can’t wait and it might look odd to enquire )

So it made me wonder about this whole dads on marriage certificates business (again).

1. What goes down in that space if you know who your dad is/was but have long lost contact?

2)I thought the government were looking at adding mothers?

The registrar will know what to do about the dad situation, they will have come across it before.

I believe that mothers will be added on marriage certificates from May 2021.

1. I think you can leave it blank. I did because I find the whole idea antiquated (fathers only). It wasn't a problem but I did have to have a five minute 'talking to' from the registrar about how this was a final decision and in the future people might think i was illegitimate or hated my dad (my polite version of "I won't care, I'll be dead" flummoxed her).
2. That was meant to be imminent but I think has been paused due to covid.

My friend knows where her father is and could contact him if she wanted to, but chooses to have nothing to do with him. She left the father bit blank.

We’d just got engaged when it was in the news that mothers were being added to marriage certificates. We had an average length engagement and have now been married for 2 years, and it hasn’t happened. I don’t think it’s seen as a priority.

The registrar will know what to do about the dad situation, they will have come across it before.

Yes, I know, but I can’t go and ask one, and I can’t weirdly ask this work contact months down the line about how their friend’s marriage certificate situation was resolved.

I believe that mothers will be added on marriage certificates from May 2021.

That’s fabulous news!

@AdventureIsWaiting

1. I think you can leave it blank. I did because I find the whole idea antiquated (fathers only). It wasn't a problem but I did have to have a five minute 'talking to' from the registrar about how this was a final decision and in the future people might think i was illegitimate or hated my dad (my polite version of "I won't care, I'll be dead" flummoxed her).

1. That was meant to be imminent but I think has been paused due to covid.

Ha! Good for you.

I was imagining putting the dad’s name & occupation down but then nobody knowing whether to add the “(deceased)” bit. That does get round it.

I really struggled between my feminism and my love of genealogy when I married. (It’s hard enough tracing back without incomplete information- and I include lack of mothers details as “incomplete information” IMO).

Nice to know if I ever go mad and decide to remarry, I actually will have the choice to civilly partner instead AND Mum’s details can go down. Also that I will be named in my DC’s entries if they marry.

My mum is on my Scottish marriage certificate. I had no idea that wasn’t the case with (presumably) English ones.

Oh I didn’t know that about Scottish ones @MrsBungle . Any idea how long that’s been the case?

This is an image of an English one, showing how fathers’ names, occupations are recorded and how retirement or deceased status is added in. (It also has a really peculiar feature for anyone interested in this stuff, but that’s by the by. I just grabbed it from google.)

In my case the vicar put whoever I asked him to ie my step dad who had married my mum when I was a toddler and brought me up.

He didn't care who was on my birth certificate or anything.

My issue was that even though I had been using my step dads surname since he married my mum, legally it wasn't my name so they were going to put my birth name on the marriage certificate and read the banns as that - which I absolutely didn't want as my biological grandparents (who have had NOTHING to do with me) still lived in the village where I was getting married!

I had to change my name by deedpoll 8 weeks before my wedding to the name I had already been using for 21 years 😂

My father's name is on my marriage certificate although I hadn't seen him for 18 years at that time and didn't know anything about his whereabouts. I did explain to the registrar and that was apparently OK.

@RickiTarr

Not something applicable to my own situation, but was just having a chat with a work acquaintance and this issue is apparently looming for someone she knows.

(Presumably she/they will find out the answer in due course but I can’t wait and it might look odd to enquire )

So it made me wonder about this whole dads on marriage certificates business (again).

1. What goes down in that space if you know who your dad is/was but have long lost contact?

2)I thought the government were looking at adding mothers?

Mothers’ details will be included on marriage certificates for the first time from May 2021.

About time too!

I was estranged from my father and he is now deceased. When we got married last year the Registrar asked for my father's details for the certificate. I explained that I didn't have a relationship with him and was it compulsory ? She explained that it is not compulsory but is considered helpful the the tracking of family trees/history.

Scotland and NI both include mother's names. Not a new thing. Don't know about Wales.

In my case the vicar put whoever I asked him to ie my step dad who had married my mum when I was a toddler and brought me up.

Ah, nice vicar. I wonder whether he was bending the rules or whether that’s completely permissible anyway?

I had to change my name by deedpoll 8 weeks before my wedding to the name I had already been using for 21 years

Glad you got it sorted out even if it was a faff.

The oddity I spotted on that example I posted was that the groom had changed his name by deed poll to the bride’s father’s surname (so presumably her maiden name), before the wedding, and the fact that he had changed his name was detailed on the certificate. Which throws up several questions.

I think the vicars/registrars do have a lot of personal discretion in some aspects. They must do. It’s the only way to explain certain things.

@Mistressinthetulips

Scotland and NI both include mother's names. Not a new thing. Don't know about Wales.

It’s not unusual for Scotland and NI to be ahead of us in lots of ways, I think.

@RickiTarr

Oh I didn’t know that about Scottish ones *@MrsBungle* . Any idea how long that’s been the case?

This is an image of an English one, showing how fathers’ names, occupations are recorded and how retirement or deceased status is added in. (It also has a really peculiar feature for anyone interested in this stuff, but that’s by the by. I just grabbed it from google.)

I think 1855 - certainly every Scottish certificate I’ve come across doing my family tree has both parents.

Scottish certificates are a great source of info as both parents are on all birth death and marriage certs, and the mother’s maiden name is always included.

@TheDogsMother

I was estranged from my father and he is now deceased. When we got married last year the Registrar asked for my father's details for the certificate. I explained that I didn't have a relationship with him and was it compulsory ? She explained that it is not compulsory but is considered helpful the the tracking of family trees/history.

Ah! That does answer the question then. It’s just optional. Thanks.

It is extremely helpful for tracking family trees/history/heritage so for that reason I really think it’s best to fill in as much information as possible. With exceptions for obvious reasons.

We’re looking through DH’s family tree now and I must say I’m very glad to hear that mothers’ names will also be recorded in future as that would have helped us a lot!

One of my forebears has their maternal grandfather in the Father space (can't remember who, there were quite a few fathers unknown, but I think it was the one who was brought up by her grandparents because her mother died). They have added "(grandfather)", but this was 150 years ago and probably not allowed now

Interesting that the man in the posted certificate changed his name to his fiancee's maiden name. Dotingly humouring his beloved's whim, or looking to an inheritance?

I got married in 1996 and the Mum’s details are on our certificate (Scotland).

Scottish certificates are a great source of info as both parents are on all birth death and marriage certs, and the mother’s maiden name is always included.

That’s a relief. I’ve completely exhausted what I can trace for my family and next I’ll be doing my DCs’ other side, which is all Scottish, AFAIK. So that’s encouraging.

Interesting that the man in the posted certificate changed his name to his fiancee's maiden name. Dotingly humouring his beloved's whim, or looking to an inheritance?

IKR? Or escaping his past?

The change is imminent, I'm on a course about it on Wednesday. If you are unaware of the location, occupation, whether deceased of the father then you can search the records, if not fruitful you put unknown (before, might change I find out Wednesday)

@RickiTarr

Scottish certificates are a great source of info as both parents are on all birth death and marriage certs, and the mother’s maiden name is always included.

That’s a relief. I’ve completely exhausted what I can trace for my family and next I’ll be doing my DCs’ other side, which is all Scottish, AFAIK. So that’s encouraging.

Scotland people is your friend.

All listings are on there and free to search, so you search with two surnames and it’ll show you a list. Makes it much easier to find your Smith / Jones marriage when you can see first names, year and location.

Also older certificates (each category has a different limit for privacy) can be viewed for 6 credits on the site. So you get a look at the book. Much cheaper than ordering lots of old certificates as you often have to do in England. Newer ones you have to buy.

My marriage very doesn't state any where about father being deceased or not, and I had no idea when I got married whether he was alive or dead. I wish there was an option to put the mother down.

@moochingtothepub

The change is imminent, I'm on a course about it on Wednesday. If you are unaware of the location, occupation, whether deceased of the father then you can search the records, if not fruitful you put unknown (before, might change I find out Wednesday)

I’ve just realised that this will apply to two of my DC in future (if they marry or register a civil partnership). So I do have a personal interest, after all (doh), albeit at a slight remove, and big imminently. They haven’t seen their biological father/ my exh, since they were very young and don’t want to.

I’m just trying to guess how they’d feel about searching the records and digging that stuff up. How anyone else in that situation would feel raking complicated stuff up immediately before a wedding.

Is it in any way optional?

Please do come back and tell us what you are told on Wednesday.