Opinions on this degree choice?

[sugarspicexx]

Hi all,

I'm after advice and guidance. I'm 28 and have decided to go to University to hopefully extend my options in life. My degree chose is a BA in a modern language & international law.

I'm a little concerned that the law area of the degree isn't a traditional LLB Law degree, however I'm not focusing on becoming a lawyer. I think a high-stress job in law would be exhausting on my personality.

A small part of me is aching to choose a degree related to engineering or computer science, but since maths is not my strongest skill, (I'm rubbish at maths!) and it's likely to bring extreme stress, I think I would struggle and/or lose interest.

Careers outside of engineering that interest me are - journalism, education, HR, and working within a behind-the-scenes role at a law-firm.

I have thought about what I would like to study for a while now and always come back to deciding on a modern language. I'm hoping the law side of the degree provides more practicality, but I recently read the "what do you regret most in life" thread, and now I'm doubting my choice haha.

Basically, as much as I love writing and languages, I worry about not choosing a degree that will access me to a career that is almost guaranteed to pay comfortably - I'm scared of future regret, but also aware that these things are never transparent.

If anyone has advice/reassurance - or has been in a similar position, then I would love to hear it.

International law also sounds very glamorous but what would you use it for. It's the legal equivalent of science's marine biology - it sounds cool what with all the swimming with dolphins bit - but ultimately not terrifically employable because there are lots of them.

As for working within a behind-the-scenes role at a law-firm there are fewer and fewer support roles available these days. Maybe I've missed something but those roles seemed very dull, not very well paid and stressful. Having done international law will not help you get a job there.

Law is a wide profession. Not everybody wants to work in a big city firm. There are inhouse jobs, government and so on which are less stressful. Sometimes people use their law degree to get jobs outside the law like journalism.

I am a lawyer but not in the UK. I hope somebody who is in the UK can give you more focussed advice. I would have real concerns about your plan.

What you’ve picked won’t lead easily to a job, it will simply mean you can tick the box that you have a degree. Modern languages are a hobby unless you develop full working fluency, remember you’re usually up against native speakers. What languages would you pick and why?
International law without being a law qualification sounds very interesting but not much use in practise.

Most people who leave uni with an arts degree that doesn’t link directly into a job take several years and a really low salary to really get into career path. Remember it is very competitive for young people right now. This means you’d likely be mid thirties before you start to see returns.

You’re by no means too old to do it, it’s great you want to, but if you want to give yourself a chance at the end of it then you need to pick a degree that teaches you a SKILL not a subject.

I might be wrong but you seem to be looking at a degree as something that will directly translate into a career, but most degrees don't work like that. Generally, at undergrad level, a degree can offer all sorts of transferable skills that lead into a multitude of careers. For example, I have two undergrad degrees, one is an entry point for accounting, one for law, neither are directly relevant though.

A modern language is really useful, I see more and more employers asking for this. I don't know much about international law, but I'm guessing it will teach you skills like research, analysis and critical thinking that will be desirable to all sorts of industries, especially if combined with a language.

Thank you for the clear and useful replies so far

I chose German because it appealed to me the most and after considering all the language options, it seemed the most logical choice for me. The modules combine history, politics and literature; all subjects I enjoy. The International law aspect of the degree worries me the most because it doesn't seem to directly link to anything.

@SaskiaRembrandt I like your mention about a degree being a foundation to work with and not a shortcut. Some employers don't specify a degree they prefer, (depending on the job) but a degree is needed to get your foot in the door as a potential candidate - at least this is what I've noticed when browsing jobs online, I might be wrong.

I think I will allow myself more time to make a decision. Thank you.

The other options with modern language are business studies or combining two MLs, but these didn't excited me as much as international law.

If you were looking at working for UN, COE etc maybe doing translation work then international law might be vaguely useful for accessing interesting internships etc. I've a master's in international law - wish I'd done languages instead!

Having been where you are and more than once, I think I'd concentrate on taking one degree subject and taking it to the best of your ability than making your life harder with dual honours. I'd personally do a language degree (and German is wonderful), especially if the international law element isn't actually adding obvious value right now. If you're really excited about it, though, you might prefer to do law instead. Or you might decide to approach it at postgrad or diploma level.

Speaking as someone who makes a living through languages with a side of journalism (in a stressful and precarious but satisfying freelance way: other options are available) I would concentrate on making sure you immerse yourself as much as possible and perform as strongly as you can across the full scope of your degree. A key step is making sure you don't overload yourself at the start. A language degree will give you a strong grounding in your chosen culture, and it's possible to reach an excellent level of fluency IF you apply yourself very hard and spend as much time as possible in the country itself. It will enrich your career prospects, too, just not in a tit-for-tat way: by the end of it, you'll have an impressive array of skills you can "sell" to future employers. That's my two Eurocents.

The Open University do different ‘routes’ to their BEng degree. Some have a tiny amount of maths, they’re not accredited by IMechE and the likes because it just doesn’t contain the content required but they’re still BEng’s and all the interesting stuff that comes along with it. In addition to that they teach you from the ground up.

I mean the routes that dont contain the heavy maths aren’t accredited but the test are, just like any other BEng.

@DulcieMainwaring I can see where you’re coming from, but I have to respectfully disagree. Here’s my experience...

I learned Chinese whilst teaching English there. I studied it to business fluency with all the relevant qualifications. Eventually I decided that teaching wasn’t for me, so I came back to the UK, full of confidence that my language skills were a) good enough and b) unusual enough to get me a good job.

Imagine my disappointment when after several failed interviews, I was asked the killer question... yes that’s great you can speak Chinese, but what can you actually do with it? To which, tbh, I didn’t have an answer.

I’d also add that the more people speak your chosen language, the more you need to do to progress.

I'm sorry to hear it went that way, @ConiferGate, and I can very well imagine it's a common scenario. I definitely wouldn't claim that just knowing a language is enough. But having the best possible degree result matters, and no subject or combination of subjects is going to be enough to secure a job without any other factors. It's more about acquiring the skills (and the references, the demonstrable ability via exams and dissertations etc.) to form the basis for future career development. The degree bit is only the very start and I favour making that start as smooth as possible.

OP, you mention being interested in engineering, but being worried about the maths. What is it about engineering that interests you?

Have you considered materials engineering? It was my degree (and lead directly to a well paid career I am still in) and involves very little maths. There is also a shortage in the UK, especially for those having studied it as their main degree rather than just a few modules.

Materials is basically the study of why stuff behaves like it does and how we can manipulate properties to make them more useful, by understanding the effect that microstructure has on properties and then manipulating it. For example, if I heat steel up until it is red hot and cool it in air it will have a set of properties. If instead I cooled it very quickly in cold water it would appear like a different material: much stronger, but also much more brittle. And the microstructures look completely different. Google image search for austenitic stainless and martensite stainless microstructures for a good example of how different microstructures can be just by cooling differently.

Once you understand how microstructures manipulate properties, you can then start working out why things break or fail (my job, although there are lots of others in correct materials selection and design of new materials etc). Look up the liberty ships in ww2. They started spontaneously dramatically splitting in two during the winter. This is because the steel they were made from went from being ductile to brittle below a certain temperature, so in cold seas they cracked. A different grade of steel wouldn't have had the same problem.

Feel free to pm me if materials might be of interest and you want more info... (I realise I have already waffled on a ridiculous amount!) It's a shame such a good career path is so relatively unknown. Yet, Rolls-Royce employed (perhaps still does) more materials engineers than any other type of engineer...

To become really proficient in German you'll need to spend a considerable amount of time in Germany - think a year at least. Does your course allow/expect you to do this? If not it isn't a serious language course.

I agree that a dual honours degree is very hard work. My friends who tried this either dropped one pretty smartly or became totally stressed out.

I understand that to be any use to you in career terms the law part would have to be a qualifying law degree ( which I presume it isn't.)
You seem to be falling between two stools here.

At your age my advice would be to choose a degree which has a career path built in , rather than hoping it will offer you something somehow. Think Nursing, Medicine, Accountancy, Computer studies etc?

Think very carefully about which Universities to apply to. You don't say whether you have already got A levels. How good are they? Apply to the best Unis you can ie Russell Group. If your degree course does not lead to a definite career you may be able to do a post grad professional qualification but good ( if not excellent ) degree classifications are needed and often access to money.

You used to be able to do a 1 year Post Grad GDL ( expensive) to get the equivalent of a law degree but you would then need to do a 2 year training course with a company to be a qualified Solicitor: not easy to get. You'll need a good uni, a good degree, a good GDL.

A post graduate Accountancy course? ( lots of people with Arts Degrees do this), P Grad Medicine?

You need to be realistic. How well paid will a behind the scenes job in a law firm be? Some start at £15k! with possibly no progression hardly ( In comparison to a Solicitor? I can't believe conveyancing is very stressful eg,) or journalism? ( worse paid than education for most I believe ), education ? ( Do you mean teaching? It's very stressful / poor pay, people leaving in droves.) translation (poorly paid - need bi lingual level almost).

You have to think hard. You will not be qualified for much that will pay good money before 32 or even 33+. You don't want to be studying hard only to find there are no (or no well paid) jobs in your line.

Also thinking about your comments on engineering jobs, there are many that aren't heavy on maths. Systems Engineering or Requirements engineering, for example. Human Factors Engineering (ergonomics).

What are your A levels and predictions /results? If engineering and computer science inspire you, I would look again. Life is too short to not do what motivates you. Data science? Economics? What about degree apprenticeships?

It strikes me that none of your suggested careers have a single route of entry. Yes, there are degrees targeted towards them by you can use a different route, unlike say dentistry where ultimately you need a dentistry degree (even if you were to do something else first).

So given that, you need to look at what skills the degree will give you and whether you will enjoy it (nobody loves every minute of their degree but if you hate it there is more chance you will drop out).

You don't seem particularly sold on the international law element so maybe pure languages or languages plus something else (So long as you get a year abroad still) might be better. I know people with language degrees who have gone into translating, teaching, and English language journalism but specialising in reporting on the countries that speak the language they studied.

Since you want a career not a particular career with a defined path, have you tried approaching it more in terms of skills you enjoy. Do you like lab work? Problem solving? Library archive research? Data analysis? Report writing v essay writing? They are all skills that apply in a number of careers so you would have options but some subjects/universities would give you a better grounding in one skill set over another.

Loads of information to take on board here. I will try to answer straightforwardly as possible.

@Maxellious I enjoy applying logical thinking, and I think a vast range of different opportunities can emerge from engineering. I'm also interested because of a point you mentioned; it's a skill that is in demand. I haven't read much about materials engineering before, but I did used to work in motor trade and probably witnessed some of the things you've mentioned when visiting production factories! I will certainly research more about it. Thank you for your background information on your job role.

In contrast to the positives engineering can provide - I am still wary about maths and science not being my strongest academic subjects. Therefore, I am cautious to choose a career route that is closely related to both. Realistically, I think I would struggle - even if the maths involved isn't as heavy as I first anticipated -this may still be a problem. I am cautious about computer science for these reasons too, although it did spark my interest and I have considered it.

I originally chose language studies because I think it'll enhance skills and interests I already have. The law aspect was only to provide further skills and opportunities, but it seems this might not be the best approach.

The university I'm interested in and had a positive response from is Birkbeck, (UoL) and because they are focused on evening studies, it won't interfere with my current job, which fortunately pays well (but is not somewhere I wish to stay in longterm, for multitude of different reasons) and will be beneficial to keep whilst studying.

And yes, the current degree choice includes a year in Germany

Due to the reasons I've mentioned and the advice I've kindly been given by you all ,I am leaning towards dropping international law and focusing on languages and then using it as an undergraduate study to apply further/elsewhere.

My degree far removed from my current employment

However, a degree should provide a wide breadth of knowledge

Do not under estimate the soft skills that people have like communication, good networking, flexibility, tenacity, learning new skills etc

If possible do something that you enjoy for your degree & work

Another vote for Engineering

@sugarspicexx please don’t underestimate - the question is not IF you can speak a language, it’s what you can DO with it. If you don’t have the skills to do something with it then it’s of no use to anyone. There are so many amazing English speakers in the world, that we really are up against very tough competition when it comes to foreign language jobs. It’s often better to employ a native speaker with English as a foreign language than a native English speaker with a second language. If you want to do languages that’s great, but think about WHY, what you want at the end of it, and how you can work to make that happen from the outset.

Also as an aside, working full time plus doing evening courses is going to be a huge commitment. I’d say almost impossible if you have family too, not for three years. Have you looked at how many hours self study are required for modules and course? Bearing in mind that they are never linear... it’s more like that you’ll do 0 extra hours for the first five weeks of a semester, then double or triple the recommended hours in the second half and holidays. Just not possible any other way, you don’t have enough content knowledge.

I did German at undergraduate. Most of my year went into non-language jobs. Think teaching, secretarial/business management, civil service, IT (that was me).

There is a shortage of engineering undergraduates, so you'd find it easier to find employment I'm sure. I second the idea of exploring engineering related courses which don't relay on sold maths, such as Systems Engineering or IT courses.

solid maths...

I would do the computer science you mention Op.....don't fret the maths....

I did languages wt uni OP. Utterly brilliant. Incredibly enriching.

Not that great for getting a job.

Let's say you do German. You spend a year in Germany, you work hard and graduate with a First. Congratulations. Now what? Short of being a German teacher (another year studying), what are you going to do? You can't translate or interpret officially because you need a masters/certification in that. And who would you be competing with for roles? Very likely bilingual Brits/Germans who have been speaking the language for years. And that goes for almost any job you apply for in which a language is required. It's doable, but you need to know what you're getting into.

The one place where languages are important and there are good career paths is the foreign office. You might want to check out what jobs they have. Your interest in international law may be indirectly relevant there. And unlike most other positions where a language is relevant, you're unlikely to be up against too many native speakers, as you can't hold dual nationality in a lot of FCO positions, I believe!

Maybe also look at M16? Computing and a language could be a good combo there!