Talk to me about my 6 year olds sleep

[FixxerUpper]

Essentially she is not getting enough of it.

She shares a room with her three (nearly 4) year old sister (because they begged and begged so we bought them bunk beds). We have a bedtime routine. Bath (not every night), cup of milk, teeth, a story each. They’re in bed for about half seven. Three year old settles quickly.

6 year old has never been an early bedder so generally we let her take her night light up into her bed and read for half an hour or so. This way the light doesn’t disturb 3 in the bunk below.

Problem is that she has no interest in sleep. She seems to hate it. She won’t even try. So she’s still awake at 10pm, sometimes even 11pm. We have gone in and taken the book and light away at (say) half eight but she won’t even try to sleep. She just keeps coming downstairs because she’s bored or hungry or thirsty etc.

She’s so tired she’s in a terrible state. She’s pale and on a knife edge all the time. Cries easily. Means it’s hard to get her up for school (although she is bright and seems to be fine when she’s at school, she enjoys school). But I can’t force her to sleep. I can cajole and encourage and even nag her to try to sleep but I can’t force her and I don’t know what to do.

She doesn’t say much about it. Only that she finds nighttime boring. I’ve tried an earlier bedtime. I’ve tried a later bedtime. Literally nothing makes any difference.

Tonight we put them to bed for half seven and her dad told her no book tonight, straight to sleep. All was quiet for half an hour and we thought great she must be away. Then the next thing we heard her getting up and creeping into the playroom for a book. Do we let her read or do we accept she’s not for sleeping and leave her to it? I just have no idea.

That's a hard one. I don't have first hand experience but my mum did a childrens sleep course which provided information and methods to aid sleep in children (this was for children with sen but I am sure many things are universal) There must be educational resources out there, charities or guides. Without rambling I know when I can't sleep its because my mind is racing perhaps just like us adults she has a lot going on in her mind. It might sound a little cheesy but maybe some mindfulness excersises would help x

Sounds like she still has loads of stuff buzzing in her head. I would try mindfulness as pp said, but also massage, and an opportunity to talk through the happenings of the day earlier in the evening so that she has processed things a bit more before bed.
I’d definitely not be giving milk to a 6 yr old.
I would also be explaining to her the effects of not enough sleep, and talking through with her what it is that is stopping her from sleeping. 6 is old enough to start having these kind of conversations.
i know sharing a room is nice, but it sounds like it’s not working that well; you need the three yr old to sleep but the 6 yr old will need input to help learn new habits at that time. If they were in separate rooms then you would be able to relax into giving the older one more time and input

Why can’t she have a cup of milk at six?

The rest of your post makes sense. I am questioning the room sharing to be honest.

Have you tried Moshi sleep stories? Think there are a couple on YouTube if you dont want to get the app, worked wonders with DD.

If you do get the app/subscribe, there are different categories for clearing the mind, anxieties etc

No I’ve seen them advertised on Instagram though. I’ll definitely have a look at that

She’s quite quiet and isn’t a big talker really. I try to draw her on what happened through the day etc but she usually just says “can’t remember”. She doesn’t really like it if I probe. She gets quite grumpy with me. But I’ve been putting that down to tiredness.

My 6 year old sleeps from 10pm to 8am (sometimes a little longer). Perhaps she doesn't need as much sleep as you think?

my 6 year old dd fights sleep too. When she's ready to settle down the moshi app helps and there's a lot of stories and music. I think you can get a free trial.

Separate rooms might be better, perhaps she could have audio books or colouring to do till a little later then try to sleep?

I was a non-sleeper and just had to lie there awake. She should just put up with it and certainly not come downstairs.

I have a 6yo (nearing 7) that struggles to get off to sleep. She was rarely asleep before 9, but it could be 10 or even 11 some nights. It's down to her mind racing as she will ask a million different questions, each on a different subject from the moment the light goes out. She has always struggled with getting to sleep, and until quite recently, staying asleep too.

I did a webinar on sleeping problems a few months ago to try and improve things. We already had no screens for at least an hour before bed (usually more like 2), were chatting about her day/worries etc earlier in the day, had a good and calm bedtime routine, a dark room with no distractions, and weren't rewarding the questions with answers. We also ask her to lie on her front so it is less likely she starts playing with her teddies. Bedtime was 7.30. We now only use lamps/keep lights dimmed from when the bedtime routine begins, and sometimes even eat dinner with them dimmed. We get her into bed for 7.45 but allow her to read quietly to herself until 8.15. The recommendation was that bedtime should be moved so they fall asleep within 20mins of lights out, and you start by having lights out 20mins before the horrifically late time they've been previously falling asleep at. You gradually make it earlier every X number of days (5 I think - I'd have to check my notes!). This has worked well for us in improving things, although I think we've hit the limits with it. The reading allows her mind to zone out the buzzing thoughts, and she is now almost always asleep by 9 but is often earlier and within the 20mins.
Other things recommended were Horlicks, feeding worries into a worry monster (you can buy these), and relaxation apps, although DD has a habit of becoming incredibly attached and obsessed about things so didn't fancy adding another item to the routine we'd eventually have to wean her off. For the getting out of bed, the recommendation was to put them back either in silence or with just a gentle "no, it's bedtime now" and certainly no answering the myriad of questions. They also recommended a technique to stop the calling out using marbles: you give them plenty the first night, more than you know they'll need. Each time they call out you will answer the question but they lose a marble. If they have any marbles left in the morning they get eg 1 small part from a Playmobil set. You then slowly reduce the marbles. It was my plan to do this after the later bedtime strategy, but the questions have largely stopped so it hasn't been necessary.

In contrast, her sister is generally fast asleep with 5 mins of her head touching the pillow 🤷🏻‍♀️ Same routine, just a totally different personality! and has found her brain's off switch!

Thank you. That’s really helpful.

I do find that if I put her back to bed without engaging she will cry like I’ve really hurt her feelings. I find that hard (DH not so much - he thinks I’m too soft). I don’t want her going to sleep with tears and feeling sad though so it means I’ll go in and calm her and then I can’t get away again.

@FixxerUpper

She’s quite quiet and isn’t a big talker really. I try to draw her on what happened through the day etc but she usually just says “can’t remember”. She doesn’t really like it if I probe. She gets quite grumpy with me. But I’ve been putting that down to tiredness.

We used to do highs and lows, so talk about our highlight and lowlight of the day. Most of the time it's something like lunch (high) and the we did taking away in maths (low) but occasionally mine would spill out something that was generally upsetting her or a worry. I found it a non intimidating low key opportunity for mine to talk to me without them realising X

My 6 year old has always been late to bed. He now usually falls asleep between 9 and half past but it used to be later. We read to him for about half an hour then turn off the light. We keep popping back in to sit with him for a minute, and if he is struggling we sit in there with him until he falls asleep.

Could you try sleep meditation CDs? We used to do this with DS1. He has adhd and finds it hard to fall asleep. Now he's older he takes melatonin as and when he feels he needs to. He had story CDs as well. I put the volume on really low so that if he was fidgeting in bed the sound of the covers would drown it out. As previously I'd have had to sit in his room reminding him not to move. Some children are soothed by movement like rubbing their foot on the covers though. He needed to lie still in order to relax enough to sleep.

Another thing to try might be a weighted blanket?

We have tried Headspace before but she didn’t really get into it. We’ve also tried audiobooks but she would just force herself to stay awake listening to them. I’ll try music though. If I stay in the room she won’t sleep she’ll just talk rubbish to avoid it. Weighted blanket is an interesting idea. I’ll look into that.

My rule when I stayed in the room was no talking or I would leave and we had to try again the next night.

I wouldn’t give milk at bedtime beyond toddlerdom because it contains a lot of carbs ie: sugar, and you want her to wind down, not be energised.

Sounds like you have some helpful suggestions to try; good luck with it, hope you find some of them move things forward for your dd.