If you're not from the UK (or UK citizen abroad), do you think the class system is different?

[Duvetstay]

There are so many threads on MN about class, as in certain foods are MC etc etc. There was a comment on one of these about the British being obsessed with class signifiers.

Which I'd say was true. But are other countries any different? Surely there are always "tribes"? My Dad is Australian and although it's different from the UK I wouldn't say it was without class signifiers (I've never lived there though)

Just got me thinking if the British are markedly different in this regard?

I wouldn’t say the classless system is the utopia that is often perceived. It’s fine if you are a capable and engaged member of society but no-one is expected to anyone favours so marginalised people are not necessarily helped as they would be expected to be like in the U.K. for example, I’ve seen government officials refuse to engage in helping people (presumably refugees) because they cannot articulate themselves in either danish or English. People will just ask people to go away. I’m sure that can happen anywhere, but here in Denmark it’s quite acceptable to just not make provisions for less able people to access a service. A classic example is using the danish language to exclude (normally ‘non western’) immigrants from accessing health or education services.

I'm from the Netherlands and our class system basically collapsed during WW2 - and it never really for reestablished. There's socio-economic inequality, but there isn't a tribal class system the way there is in the UK.

My family are Chinese though I was born here. China’s systems have had many changes and huge upheavals. They fled due to Communism. When my family fled the communists, they were wealthy and at at risk of being killed. Their land and property were seized. My Father hated communism but then his family lost so much. Our ancestral home is apparently a museum now, my brother has visited.

It’s all about that work ethic it’s the reason Chinese children get top grades consistently. My Father held Confucian beliefs. He did love chocolate biscuits from M&S I guess that’s a nod to the British middle class :)

I'm in the US, but from the UK. The class system is very income-based here and much less codified by things like taste or mannerisms.

Often on Mumsnet is see remark about middle class/upper-middle class people buying used or having older cars than people they loss down on. In the US, that's not really a thing, people with more money tend to drive large, new cars and wear expensive, new clothing.

That's not to say that class does not exist here. There are idealisms around family structure, behaviour and morals that do align to income brackets. For example, at least in my area there is an ideal around a "good" family being two-parent, church-going, squeaky clean, kids in extracurriculars and AP classes. Typically, those sorts of families are in the upper-income brackets.

I've lived abroad a lot.

I would say that every country has a class system, but it's not readily perceived by outsiders. And of course in some places is the norm to deny it. But all that achieves is to disempower even further the people at the bottom of the pile.

Social mobility is considerably easier to achieve in some countries than others

The thing that's different between UK and many others is the willingness to acknowledge it exists and to talk about it. But the number of people who do not appear to realise that 'U and non-U' was written as a tease, was a bit of a surprise to me

Aus living in UK here. I cannot stand the class system and one of the main reasons (along with weather and lifestyle haha) I want to raise kids back in Aus. Sure people ask what school you went to, can make judgements based on which suburb you live in but I find most people don’t care that much, and in fact there is regular and good humoured self-pisstaking (eg “north shore mums” and self deprecating private school kids memes, oft perpetuated by themselves). It’s nowhere near as ingrained and ubiquitous as class system seems here in UK. I despise it and feels so anti egalitarian.

Every country has a class system (I'm a sociologist). If you think where you live doesn't, it's probably because you benefit from it and don't notice the differences that disadvantage others. I didn't grow up in the UK, so I've had to figure out the UK class system, and what I think is obvious about it is that it's really clear. Like it's not confusing how people sort other people and themselves.

Other places, like the US (I grew up in the US), definitely have a class system. But it's a bit more invisible in many ways. Everyone in the US thinks they're middle class. But they aren't. And that's where class distinctions can actually be really insidious. People who are very clearly disadvantaged by the class system are taught they either are middle class or they can become middle class (or higher) if only they work hard enough. But that just isn't the case. People can only be powerful if there are other people to be powerful over and then when anyone fails to be upwardly mobile, it's a matter of personal failing. A class system that is a bit more invisible and touted as being very mobile and egalitarian makes it easier to disguise the fact that actually it's hard to get ahead without all the privileges that come with your family background and money, how and where you were raised, who you know, ethnicity and culture, etc.

I'm from Ireland, lots of Irish people and newspaper columnists etc claim there's no class system in Ireland which to me seems laughable. I think because there's no peerage, no House of Lords, no one called Sir or Lady it's assumed to be a classless society but this is far from the case.

The usual social signifers are immediately apparent such as level of education, occupation, where you live but are somehow glossed over. Personally I prefer the UK system where at least class is openly acknowledged and recognised rather than being ignored. That way the negative effects of class structures can be taken on board and dealt with (in theory at least!)

Very interesting mindutopia. That really well describes my observations of Denmark. It’s difficult to discuss because there isn’t a common reference points between the danish society and British. I don’t think class in Denmark exists in the same way, eg. Where you shop, what you buy, where your kids go to school, but there is definitely a ‘social’ hierarchy which is so much more difficult to nail down, like when it’s considered fine to ask people to leave for not being able to fill in forms or whatever.

I’m South African and DH is French. I definitely noticed the class thing when I moved to the U.K., and all the signifiers like accents (in South Africa the differences are more down to your native language in terms of accent, you don’t have the whole “this person is from a different village” thing you have in the U.K.). Also schools - when at university I met SO MANY people who would ask you straight off what school you went to, and use that to determine whether or no they could be friends with you.

South Africa it’s more complex - there’s the race issue which was firmly entrenched under apartheid, as well as well / education. You have some wealthy families like the Oppenheimers (Anglo American) etc but because it’s a new world country, it’s not as entrenched.

As for the French - DH has pointed it out to me, how you have “posh” French people and there’s a whole system to sustain the upper echelons of French society (eg the private universities that then feed into the higher levels of business and the government).

I think in the U.K. it’s more entrenched - France they beheaded so many of their upper classes and they’ve had big social upheavals, there is a class system but not to the same extent. And in South Africa there is to an extent, but it’s overlaid by race.

Like @Absy I am South African and I have also found the class system in the UK very strange. Class definitely exists in South Africa but it is usually tied to money (which is often tied to race). When I first came to the UK, I was really surprised to find people describing themselves as "working class" when they had white collar jobs and were comfortably well-off.

I went to university in the US and observed exactly what @mindutopia has said - it was almost worse because it was if everyone pretended that class just didn't exist and that those who were on the bottom obviously deserved to be there because of their own personal failings.

Thank you for your responses, really interested in the way that an obvious class system in a way is more open than the faux equality of newer countries.

I LOATHE the way Brits are conscious (and I'm aware of it as much as anyone) of things being MC... Waitrose, quinoa, where you live etc and wondered if all countries are like that. There's always so many threads on MN, "what do you think is posh", I'd like to think everywhere isn't like that!!!

However I do like the fact that money isn't the first identifier of class and the (few) genuinely upper class folk I know wear £5 wellies from the cattle feed shop.

However I do like the fact that money isn't the first identifier of class and the (few) genuinely upper class folk I know wear £5 wellies from the cattle feed shop.

Actually I think that's what is so insidious about the UK class system - it's immutability, almost like a caste system. A working class person can earn a shedload of cash in the City, but those expensive, trendy wellies give him/her away as hopelessly working class. Anyone truly posh knows that we may own land and large second homes but we wear cheap muddy wellies cuz we are true country folk. It's a dog whistle. See also: What? v Pardon?

Ikve lived in a whole bunch of different countries and I would say the class thing is very correlated with inequality. Places with less inequality have fewer class issues, in places with more it is very prevalent.

Another from NZ, specifically Christchurch, which some would say is more class obsessed than other areas (personally I don't see it, and that's having moved to Canterbury as a young adult). What a PP poster said, it's more subtle, perhaps, how people seek to pigeonhole whether you're 'their sort of people'. The standard joke is that you know a Cantab' if the first question they ask is 'what school did you go to?'

I’m Aus / U.K. dual

And although there is a bit of a system in Aus to do with schooling etc the distance from bottom to top in U.K. is very stark to me

Plus accents are stronger signifiers in U.K. In Aus there’s not much in it

I’ve also found some casual everyday remarks in Aus wouldn’t be as tolerated here

Such as, MarshaBradyo?

Am interested in difference between UK and Oz as have family there. I always think its the opposite as Australians not the most PC!!

You're so right about the dog whistle stuff Overcastcloudy... In all honesty I think it's something I say to reassure myself as I have no money but know the "rules" (my DM went ballistic if I said "serviette")!

@Duvetstay

Such as, MarshaBradyo?

Am interested in difference between UK and Oz as have family there. I always think its the opposite as Australians not the most PC!!

You're so right about the dog whistle stuff Overcastcloudy... In all honesty I think it's something I say to reassure myself as I have no money but know the "rules" (my DM went ballistic if I said "serviette")!

I think my post was a bit unclear as ‘here’ for me is U.K. now

But yes agree Aus can be more un-PC

I’m British and in my 60’s. I don’t know if I am just stupid or walk around with my head in the sand, but I have never had a conversation about class until I joined MN.
No one has ever asked me what school I went to or what my dads job was.
Think it is something that MN us obsessed with and most people aren’t really bothered about.

I come from am ex-communist country. I never noticed class much until I came to the UK.

Literally the only place I regularly see social class mentioned is on MN. Some Brits are obsessed by it yes, but I reckon most people just get on with their day and don't give this sort of thing a second thought.

I commented on a similar thread that when people say 'British' or 'UK' when talking about class signifiers they usually mean 'English.'

With schools, for example, there are no grammar schools and very few private schools in Scotland or Wales. In Wales the majority of counties don't have a single non state school, so 99.9% of kids outside of certain small areas will just go to the local school.

Similarly, more rural areas mean you could drive for more than 70 miles from, say, Aberystwyth before you hit a Waitrose, and I think there's one John Lewis in the whole of Wales, so no matter how well-off you are you're not popping in either of those daily!

Honestly before I went to uni, and then joined MN I had no idea about any of these class signifiers....It really is primarily an English thing. Not to say the Welsh/Scots etc. don't "see" class at all but most people don't walk around aware of (or caring about) all these minor signifiers!

My entire education of the English class system is based on Mumsnet threads.

@N4ish

I'm from Ireland, lots of Irish people and newspaper columnists etc claim there's no class system in Ireland which to me seems laughable. I think because there's no peerage, no House of Lords, no one called Sir or Lady it's assumed to be a classless society but this is far from the case.

The usual social signifers are immediately apparent such as level of education, occupation, where you live but are somehow glossed over. Personally I prefer the UK system where at least class is openly acknowledged and recognised rather than being ignored. That way the negative effects of class structures can be taken on board and dealt with (in theory at least!)

Got to agree with that! You don't get boys from Gonzaga hanging round Sallynoggin.