4 year old telling lies

[riddles26]

Posting in chat for traffic. My 4 year old has recently been telling lies, they are fairly minor at this stage - along the lines of 'yes I washed my hands after using the toilet' when I watched her walk out without washing from a distance. Sometimes she will lie about altercations with her sibling to avoid getting in trouble but when I give her a hug and discuss calmly, she will admit wrongdoing.

My concern is that these lies are becoming very frequent and a default answer - she will automatically give an adult the answer they want to hear even though it is completely untrue.

How do I nip this in the bud whilst she is still young? She is very defensive so being super strict with her is only going to encourage it more but I want to get the message across that it is unacceptable and show no tolerance for it.

I feel like there must be something about how I react to her that is making her do this and want to please but I cant put my finger on what to change.

a 4 year old barely knows the difference between a lie and truth. she just wants to say the answer that makes you happy and is scared of saying the wrong thing.

back off entirely. don't mention lies, don't fuss about them. if you see that she didn't wash her hands, just reminder her to do so. by asking "did you wash your hands" she will feel she is getting trapped in a lie because she gets confused between the true answer (no) and the answer that she should give if she had been good (yes). And then that makes every question into a battle or an admission of guilt. If you'd just said "remember to wash your hands", she would have done it & you could both get on with the day.

Also, remember that there are occasions in life where people should lie (e.g. thanking grandparent for a present you don't like & saying it is lovely). Putting TRUTH above kindness & helpfulness doesn't always work, especially for little kids.

She has learned somewhere that telling the truth gets her in trouble. Hard to unpick - things like handwashing, you set her up to fail, to catch her out. Better to swoop in and model handwashing, do it together, that kind of thing.

It is counter intuitive, I know.

Chin up.

Great posts by Parietal.

a 4 year old barely knows the difference between a lie and truth. she just wants to say the answer that makes you happy and is scared of saying the wrong thing.

Now you say this, I am sure you have hit the nail on the head and yes, for situations such as the one I described, what you have mentioned is probably a better way to deal with it. However, sometimes I may ask her to do something in the way you describe (such as brush hair, finish food) she will reply she has already done it when she has not which leaves me with the same problem.

I have not made a big deal of her not telling the truth yet, I have just noticed it becoming more and more frequent and not sure how to approach it.

Also, if there has been a fight between her and a friend/sibling and they are crying, her first response is 'it wasnt me, they did xyz'. She is not always to blame and I certainly do not want to accuse but just want to drop the reflex of her saying something completely different to actual version of events

Also, if there has been a fight between her and a friend/sibling and they are crying, her first response is 'it wasnt me, they did xyz.

This is completely normal for her age OP.

Also, if there has been a fight between her and a friend/sibling and they are crying, her first response is 'it wasnt me, they did xyz.

Don't focus on who is to blame, just focus on showing empathy for the upset child yourself, and on what your DD can do to make her friend/sibling feel better.

So if you think she is lying, don't say "Tell the truth!!", say "really?" "are you sure" and let her say "Well, maybe actually ..."

And don't have overly harsh punishments for fighting or not doing little jobs etc. Too much fear of punishment is the best way to encourage a child to lie.

As a parent and a grandparent I would say do not give her the chance to lie by asking if you already know the answer. Take her and wash hands together instead of asking if she has etc etc..

I honestly don't use the words lie and truth with her. And I don't dispute her version of events, I try to give her the opportunity to tell me the truth instead. I feel like I am still doing something wrong because her default is to lie.

We don't punish for things like not washing hands - if she says she has and I suspect she hasn't, I smell them and say I cant smell soap so if you did wash them, you didn't use soap so please wash again. No further action. With siblings, if she has admitted hurting them, we will speak about how it doesn't feel nice to be hit/snatch etc, how would she feel if they did to her, apologise and move on. I try not to bring up past conflicts too once they have apologised.

It is reassuring to know the 'it wasn't me' is a default for children her age. At this point I wanted to encourage her speaking the truth then introduce when a white lie is ok as Parietal mentioned when she is a bit older

All small children will lie at some point. It's a developmental stage: they're finding out What Is Truth and what happens when they say something that isn't true.

They need to discover that they can't change things just by saying (some of us still haven't come to terms with that...), and that other people might believe them .. This is tied in with the idea that you can know something that other people don't know, which I think comes in around this age, and which is obviously very important because otherwise why would you bother telling an adult anything?

I don't have any practical advice I'm afraid (4 was a while ago) but it might help to realise this isn't anything to worry about.

It sounds fairly normal.

At four my DD once told me her sister but her when she actually bit her own arm to make it look like she had been bitten. She also told her nursery teacher I poked her in the eye with a needle (!!!)

Your child's lies are pretty minor in comparison. She's almost 6 now and has thankfully stopped this!

Lying convincingly is a sign of intelligence, I read once, because you need to hold a different version of events in your head and persuade someone else to believe you, that requires an active imagination. It is a higher social skill, and just a normal part of learning. Which is a nice spin on things.

My DD was an incorrigible liar for a few years. She still lies sometimes, usually over really pointless things; I believe she just enjoys the story-telling aspect of spinning me a fiction.

It is tricky as a child. You aren’t allowed to tell the truth and tell the next door neighbour the cake she baked for you tasted awful. And you can’t point out to granny that she has flabby arms that wobble a lot. And yet, when you tell a lie so that mummy isn’t disappointed that you made a mess, mummy finds out and gets cross. And then again, when you pretend you are a monster, everyone laughs so that kind of lie is ok. When it’s daddy’s birthday you keep his present secret right up until the special day and mummy says ‘don’t tell daddy about the present.’ And if you complain to teacher because Abdullah threw paper on the floor, teacher says, “ don’t tell tales” even though it was true. These are all lies, in a way, but some are ok but some are not. Figuring it all out is quite tricky, so cut your kid some slack.

Get a copy of The Boy Who Cried Wolf, read that repeatedly until the message is loud and clear. And similar stories.

Thank you all, seems like I may be making a mountain out of a molehill right now. @CustardyCreams you put it so well. I cant even begin to imagine how hard it is for them to understand all social norms. In my head, I just wanted to focus on her telling the truth, not worrying about keeping secrets or insulting anyone while so young but I guess they pick all that up even if I don't emphasise it.

As a child, I used to tell a lot of white lies and because it was such an awful habit, my parents often didn't believe me. I then didn't tell them things because I didn't think they would believe it - I distinctly remember a teacher once hit me at school and I never told them because I didn't think they would believe it. They found out when another parent complained to the head and were horrified. However, I genuinely thought they wouldn't believe it and I would also get told off for making the teacher annoyed. I feel so upset for the child I was as that incident wasn't even my fault - it was a supply teacher who was frustrated she couldn't control the class and I was closest to her when she lost her temper.

I don't ever want my child to be in a position where people don't believe her because she lies so often and then she just keeps significant things to herself.

There sots of stuff about this completely normal phase eg childmind.org/article/why-kids-lie/

Also get the book
How to talk so kids will listen

She's 4. Of course they lie about shit like that. I think your past is clouding your judgement,

I disagree with some pp's in that I do think a 4yo knows when they are saying something untrue. I too had this issue with my second dd. She started telling little fibs, much like yes shes washed her hands, no she didn't eat a cookie. But she definitely knew she was starting to get away with stuff and knew she was being dishonest.

She was perhaps 4 1/2 when I saw her do something she was definitely not supposed to do (nothing dangerous, but she would have known it was not something she should have done).
She denied doing it (I'd watched her do it!) I told her I knew she was lying because I had seen her and she was in more trouble for lying than the thing she had actually done. Of course she cried because she had been found out but I also told her next time she lies to me there will be consequences, like a toy being taken away from her or not getting a treat or something. Essentially the punishment would be missing out on something she didn't want to miss out on.

Literally a few days later I saw her do something again, again she would certainly have known not to do this. I asked her, giving her the chance to own up. She lied. Asked her was she sure? and did she want to change her answer? Also told her that if she lies to me I would take away the new toy makeup set she had recently acquired (and loved). She still lied.
I took away the toy makeup.
She cried so much and I felt like an absolutely awful mother. But had to see it through. She never got the makeup back. However the very next time she was about to lie about something, she stopped and told the truth. Even though she thought she might get into trouble. Which I made a huge deal of and she didn't get in much trouble because she had told the truth. (just a tiny punishment, like one cookie instead of 2 or something, but I made it clear that had she lied it would have been none at all and no icecream after dinner - or something like that)

To this day I have not knowingly been lied to by her since and she has grown into a lovely teenager with great values. And it meant I always trusted and believed her when she told me anything, and I do think that has made a huge positive impact on our relationship.

Obviously I can't say she has never ever lied about anything since, but it certainly nipped the constant lies in the bud and her thinking she can get away with anything if she lies about it.

Just want to emphasise, this was focused on her lying to get herself out of trouble over something she knew to be wrong, or blaming someone for something she had done in order to get herself out of trouble, over.

Not about not telling granny she has wobbly bum or keeping daddys birthday present a secret.

At 4, a child can definitely differentiate between these types of 'fibs'.

They may make the odd slip up. DD1 did announce around that age that the lady in the supermarket had really weird hair, quite loudly. (it was pink and blue). But then we have a different discussion on commenting on how people look and taking peoples feelings into account.
Definitely different to telling a lie to not get into trouble or because you didn't want to wash your hands or something.

@idontlikealdi

4.

She's 4. Of course they lie about shit like that. I think your past is clouding your judgement,

I was 3 or 4 when I started telling white lies. Also about insignificant little things but I was not believed when I did tell the truth so I then lied more.

I want to be sure I don't treat her unfairly

Thanks for link @Embracelife and thanks @Swordfish1. I am not sure if that would work with her, she gets so defensive about everything right now but will keep it in mind

Consequences every time...
Think about how you phrase the question - if you know she didn't wash her hands then rather than put her on the spot - just say - you didn't wash your hands like I asked, so now instead of playing we are going to go and wash your hands.
Sibling fights (we have a lot of this) - because last time you didn't tell me what happened straightaway I am going to have to take each of you separately and go through exactly what happened. Usually ends up finding out that both had done the wrong thing - sibling 1 does something mean, sibling 2 retaliates. Both kids get a talking to. Reiterate that all this time discussing it means that both of them have missed out on a, b or c.
Its a long game and really frustrating - but for us we always go down the consequence route.
Its actually a good age to reinforce that its the lie that's a bigger problem, not the action that they are covering up . We always stress that the lie is more disappointing than whatever they were trying to hide.

This is an interesting read OP. It suggests that young children who tell more antisocial lies (lies for personal gain) have better theory of mind skillls, and that the lies will switch to prosocial ones (for the good of others) as they grow older. I wouldn't worry about your little girl

greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/whats_good_about_lying

Thanks @jillandhersprite, you have described the sibling fights down to the detail! My younger one is only 2.5yrs and struggles with emotions when he feels injustice. He will end up hurting her because she aggravated him but she denies all wrongdoing, it is always that he spontaneously hurt her. I know this is rarely ever the case but try not to say that as the default becomes me not believing her. He also struggles to verbalise his emotions when angry - something that will improve as he grows no doubt. I sometimes think it will get easier as they grow and both can give me an account but then realise it means playing guessing games will transform into playing judge and jury!
Agree with lying being the biggest problem, I am trying to establish somewhat natural consequences to the lies and am struggling with that. Your examples are good ones

Thanks for the link @LizzieAnt, very reassuring to read. I really really hope that is the case with her