Do you think the US does multiracialism and assimilation of immigrants better than the UK (and Europe) does?

[Cybercubed]

Ronald Reagan in a speech on immigration spoke of a letter he received from a recent naturalised immigrant on what it means to be an American:

"You can go to live in France, but you cannot become a Frenchman. You can go to live in Germany, or Turkey or Japan, but you cannot become a German, a Turk or Japanese. But anyone, from any corner of the Earth, can come to live in America and become an American."

I know people will immediately laugh this off as typical American exceptionalism etc and yes the US has a lot of racism but I think some of this statement is true if I'm being honest, I feel the concept of being an American (and Canadian) are more broader than many European nationalities, including possibly British and almost certainly English is.

The problem with national identity in Europe is its still to many largely based on ethnicity, i.e. if you're not ethnically English you're not English, if you're not ethnically Swedish, you're not a real Swede. Many people still hold these views, and often minorities struggle to integrate and identify with their host country here because of how European national identities are often strongly tied to ethnicity.

I'm actually in this situation myself, I was born and raised in England to Irish parents, and I have faced prejudice for my background and people telling me I can never be British or English because I'm not ethnically British or English. I've often had a identity crisis therefore, not feeling British or Irish. These experiences are even worse for people of colour obviously.

I've long wondered whether I would have had this problem if I was born and raised in say the US or Canada instead, people make fun of Americans doing the "I'm Irish!" or "I'm Scottish!" but they'll never deny they're American. The US is a very flawed society but I do admire this about them.

I wonder why 'Americans' want to say they are Irish or Scottish when any trace is at least two or three generations earlier? I have always thought its because it is not good enough to be 'American'.

My DH is not ethnically British and he moved here as an adult, but he has British nationality and considers himself to be British. I don't know whether other people consider him to be British or not, but frankly it's their problem if they don't!

Having been an immigrant in both countries and having brought up kids in two countries it is MUCH easier to assimilate in the USA. Much much easier. (Although we are privileged immigrants etc)

I have no idea having never had to assimilate anywhere but American TV shows always seem to make a big deal out of people being Italian Americans, African Americans, Hispanic etc and all the associated stereotypes I dont know whether that is true to life.

My OH's parents were not British, he considers himself completely British and no one has ever suggested otherwise.

It is easy to be an immigrant in america if you are one of the 'preferred types'.

@Einszwei

I agree with that, but you could say that about a lot of countries, including here. Irish people cop a lot of shit but I don't think they would face the same discrimination as someone from Africa or Asia.

@PantherPantherus

I wonder why 'Americans' want to say they are Irish or Scottish when any trace is at least two or three generations earlier? I have always thought its because it is not good enough to be 'American'.

don't they call themselves Irish American or Scottish American then?

@Einszwei

It is easy to be an immigrant in america if you are one of the 'preferred types'.

Yes, preferably not Mexican. The poor Mexicans seem to an awful time from from Americans.

I wonder why 'Americans' want to say they are Irish or Scottish when any trace is at least two or three generations earlier?

It's because all of us have more than one identity than American, and all of us, except for Native Americans, came from somewhere else (or our ancestors did) fairly recently, and by than I mean within the last two hundred years or so. In many families, the culture of origin is still strong down through generations. It's actually a significant aspect of being American.

And when an American says, for example, "I'm Irish", it's shorthand for "Irish-American."

@SenecaFallsRedux

I wonder why 'Americans' want to say they are Irish or Scottish when any trace is at least two or three generations earlier?

It's because all of us have more than one identity than American, and all of us, except for Native Americans, came from somewhere else (or our ancestors did) fairly recently, and by than I mean within the last two hundred years or so. In many families, the culture of origin is still strong down through generations. It's actually a significant aspect of being American.

And when an American says, for example, "I'm Irish", it's shorthand for "Irish-American."

Strange that Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians don't seem to do the same though? They very much tend towards their own national identities whereas Americans do see more segregated along ethnic/cultural groupings

I think it's more celebrated here to maintain your own country culture too. We don't have a homogenous black british experience it's often a Jamaican British or Nigerian British for example - I'm never sure if this is the case in the US - African American identify seems very strong but I could be totally ignorant here.

Ha ha ha ha. Nope.

@Amorousfrog

Why do you think that is? I don''t presume the US is some sort of racial utopia clearly it isn't, but I do for example see people of recent immigrant origin from Korea, China etc often fly American (or Canadian) flags outside their homes. So I do think they buy into being an American/Canadian more than they do for countries in Europe.

@ChaBishkoot

Having been an immigrant in both countries and having brought up kids in two countries it is MUCH easier to assimilate in the USA. Much much easier. (Although we are privileged immigrants etc)

Tell that to the SE Asian women who were gunned down this week.

Or to those who fell victim to the rhetoric of Trump, who was renowned for his love of assimilating people - back to "their own country", even when they had never seen it.

And why is assimilation a good thing? A country can easily manage and celebrate difference if it values and respects the rights of people. It isn't an easy ask for any country, but it is one to aspire to. Attempting to homogenise your population into some fictional "melting pot" Doesn't make the country better or stronger. It makes it deluded.

[quote Cybercubed]@Amorousfrog

Why do you think that is? I don''t presume the US is some sort of racial utopia clearly it isn't, but I do for example see people of recent immigrant origin from Korea, China etc often fly American (or Canadian) flags outside their homes. So I do think they buy into being an American/Canadian more than they do for countries in Europe.[/quote]
Or possibly they don't buy into it, but they make sure that they "out-patriot" the patriots so that they aren't a target?

Here, you can call yourself English/Scottish/British etc. and its considered rude or racist to ask someone’s racial background. In the States, someone’s racial background is first and foremost, ie Chinese-American, African-American etc.

@moondust001

Possibly, but from my experience there is a genuine love for their country, so for most they're doing in spite of the racism they experience.

With regards to the massacre in Atlanta, I don't think Americans have any more or less racists than the UK or Europe, what I do think is that racists and misogynists have ridiculously easy access to dangerous weaponry. There are over 400 million guns in the US, more than one per person, if we had a similar society, say 80 million guns lying about in the UK, there would be a lot of bad things going on here too. Thank god we don't though.

I’m Irish and have lived in the US and UK. I agree it’s much easier to assimilate in the US, but at the same time it’s assumed without question that you will embrace all things American and adapt to their values etc. Whereas in the UK I will be thought of (and will feel) completely Irish for the rest of my life.

Why would I want to be assimilated into a country though? I am an immigrant here in the UK and tbh people don’t seem that fussed one way of the other as to where I’m from. I’m friends with a number of immigrants and we are free to follow our cultures and practices without it being a big deal.

In America when my parents moved there for a spell it was like unless you were from an acceptable (white) country, you were frowned upon unless you thought America was the best thing ever. I get the whole flag flying thing because bloody hell foreigners get scrutinised out there. It’s all a bit Borg.

There are many great things about America including a lot of acceptance of difference. However there is also a big race problem. This is not all just to do with Trump, though he continued the Obama birther lies. Currently many States are looking at enacting over ID rules that will disproportionately affect minorities. This is from ACLU

www.aclu.org/other/oppose-voter-id-legislation-fact-sheet

This relates to increase in attacks on Asian Americans during Covid - in part a response to the way Trump labelled the disease

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/03/05/us/how-to-support-the-aapi-community-iyw-trnd/index.html

(I’m British and I know we have plenty of problems as well such as increased racism around coronavirus)

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/19/stark-reality-of-anti-asian-racism-in-the-uk

@CP26

Do you feel anti Irish sentiment is more prevalent here in the UK compared to the US? Anti-Irish prejudice isn't what it once was in the UK but I still feel its there when you scratch the surface.

Maybe if you are white, but not otherwise.

@Cybercubed I never experienced anti-Irish sentiment in the US, quite the opposite in fact. Americans are so gushing about Ireland, many of them have a personal connection or just romantic notions about it. I always got a really positive reaction when I said I was from Ireland.

I’ve never experienced direct anti-Irish sentiment in the UK, mainly just indifference or ignorance. Certainly no gushing. Agree anti-Irish sentiment is probably there under the surface - you can see it from the tone of some newspaper articles and online comments, particularly during the Brexit years.

I think the UK and even more the US are too large to make generalizations about the whole countries. I also think Reagan was talking out of his ass - that might have been his ideal and how he saw things (especially his negative view of other countries), but his administration was very divisive, it pitting groups against each other, and has had lasting impacts that does not help integration. His action spoke way louder than these words.

Some have it easier than others in doing this, and I think both countries have issues where in some places it is very hard to integrate no matter what - but that can equally apply to people within the country, not just immigrants. Hell, there are places in both where you move just the area over, and you'll be treated like an outsider to regard with suspicion pretty much the entire time you're there, even if it's years, even children. Some areas, I think it might be easier for immigrants than for people from a region where there is animosity.

I do not see assimilation automatically an aspirational goal - I wasn't even entirely assimilated into the way of things in my birth country, I'm not really going to do it here (and there is a part of me that wants to make jokes about how clearly the US is terrible at assimilating in with the native cultures, look how they've treated all the indigenous languages, beliefs, art...no wait, it's assimilating with the wealthy Western European-American version.).

I'm happy to integrate, I think there can be an overlapping common culture while people still have cultural ties elsewhere, but assimilation, the whole melting pot ideal, that's not for me - I'm always going to be different and there will just be things I don't entirely get (or that I just refuse - a quarter note is a quarter note, and I'm keeping that Americanism because crotchet is a ridiculous word made even worse by the twang in my accent).