Racist terms in old books - should they be removed?

[LunaNorth]

I’m a big fan of books from the 1930s and 1940s, but I’m not a fan of being confronted by the n-word, or terms like ‘working like a black’ within an otherwise totally innocuous crime novel, such as the Josephine Tey I’m reading right now.

On the one hand, I fully understand the need to show society as it really was, and not try to whitewash the past. There’s no way I’d suggest removing such language from something like To Kill A Mockingbird, or Of Mice and Men.

But on the other, nobody picks up an old crime novel in the hopes of being educated about race relations in the 1930s, do they? So you end up being yanked out of the narrative and feeling a bit guilty for even reading it in the first place.

I dunno. I’m probably massively wrong, and I’m happy to be told so, but leaving phrases like ‘n*** brown’ in a book, with no disclaimer or warning anywhere, smacks a bit of condoning it. And how the hell do you recommend or lend the book to anyone without looking like a massive racist? ‘Here, read this, it’s a cracking little crime novel, but of the old racist language in it, but don’t let that bother you.’ No, can’t do it.

I picked up the book after hearing a podcast about it, and nothing at all was said about the language. Should it have been?

I’m normally the last person to recommend censorship, but I don’t see the point in letting such language hang about in light fiction books, really. It’s like finding a razor blade in your sandwich.

Or am I completely wrong?

I agree with you about the razor blade in the sandwich, especially in books that are otherwise innocuous. I don’t think the originals should be pulped, of course - there should always be a correct record - but I have no problem with racist slurs being deleted from new issues of children’s books, or disclaimers for adult books.

Balance would be good. Let the books stand, but flag up the issue so the casual reader knows what to expect.

I threw away all of my childhood Dr Doolittle as one I was reading to the kids starting talking about the "friendly n***r" in the middle of it. No way were my kids going to read those to themselves. The modern version has been edited thank fuck. It harder with adult books but a very clear disclaimer pointing out the racist bits (for the less astute) is a good Idea.

I've been reading a lot of modernist books and short stories for my degree recently. They are considered classics, by well admired writers. They are littered with these small bits of unpleasant racism, all of them adding nothing to what is actually happening; none of them the sort of seminal race based books you describe.

I would not want Katherine Mansfield or Virginia Woolf (and many others) rewritten. Nor would I want there to be an arbitor of what is worthy literary text and what is fiction and to be rewritten. do agree with the idea of a disclaimer however.

I've been thinking about this with Roald Dahl. I feel his time is coming for the modern audience to decide whether we want to celebrate works with such anti-disability, agist, fat phobic language in it. I love his books but I think we have to consider that it is at odds with what we teach now. Roald talks about bad things happening to bad people who just happen to be ugly/ fat/ old and that's how you can tell that they are bad.'

Obviously as awful as that would be, it's also the wider expressions of very different and maybe offensive social attitudes that I think should not just be erased. They are deeply enmeshed in the culture and history of , in this case Britain, but that also applies to other countries so just wiping them out simplifies the past and the present.

Just as an example,I mentioned George Orwell's essays which I read very young and I was very surprised by what seemed random prejudices against vegetarians and sandal wearers. He was also against the use of contraceptives as I remember which came out in 1984 and his portrayal of the love affair. It would now be regarded as irreedeemably sexist and homophobic yet how much is missed if such knowlege is destroyed?

As the years have gone by I have learnt that such attitudes as with many others were deeply ingrained in the early 20th Century and would have influenced those brought up by parents of that era. I think I'm trying to say we are none of us as modern as we think, or maybe it's just me?

I agree with PP adult books, most adults will recognise or was language of the time and we have long moved on from it.
Children's books are different. When I was at primary school I wrote a story in class and wrote about one of the characters 'he was a queer fellow', I remember very clearly my teacher pulling me aside and asking me what that word meant I told her it meant odd , she let the story stand. I told my mum who (probably mortified) spoke to teacher the best day to explain I'd been reading a huge amount of Enid Blyton. She then explained to me that words can change meaning and that people used that word negatively towards men who loved men/women who loved women. I was fortunate to have that kind of support and guidance. As I got a bit older age would read/re-read the books I was reading so she could explain things, I was advanced at reading and had exhausted the school reading scheme by seven. Lots of children don't have that so an explanation about the language or context of a book might be good in some cases.

As a prolific reader of 19th and 20th century literary fiction with a penchant for female-authored detective fiction of the 20s-40s, who also happens to be mixed race, encountering racist terms and ideas in the books I was first exploring as a young teen was indeed an uncomfortable and somewhat alienating experience. But I still wouldn’t censor anything, as it’s part of the reality of expression and culture at the time. Although changing the title of Christie’s book to ‘And Then There Were None’ (via ‘Ten Little Indians’, which is an interesting process in itself for reflecting changing attitudes towards racist terms...) is necessary - having the language as incidental is one things, but making it a focus is a step too far maybe.

I think I’m influenced by the fact that my mum used to do that, ‘Well, in my day n*** brown was just a colour and nobody minded,” thing. It pissed me off then, and I find it jarring now. I don’t like the thought that this language still appearing in books could make bigots feel justified.

But I can also see how censorship is wrong and the past shouldn’t be erased.

I find it silly that any book should have a disclaimer or be rewritten, if a person is so affected by a few offensive words then perhaps they should give it a quick google first. Maybe children reading in schools should be given a general sort of explanation that people in the past had different views.

I’m a POC and can’t say I ever felt phased by racist language in old books, or by any offensive language. I’m surprised to see so many people saying they find it jarring or that it pulls them out of the book!

Herja, I was going to mention Virginia Woolf also. I read her novels, essays (The Common Reader, recently re-published , I believe?) , letters and diaries. As a working class teenager I was definitely excluded from her world - I would've been lucky to be the parlour maid or something. I remember her mocking an auto-didact old man as obviously absurd and not understanding why. But hey, I learned another word for self-taught, and later realised how insecure she was in her own learning but also how questioning of the whole cultural basis of what an 'education' was or is. So should I have stopped at vaguely hurt and excluded ( asking myself here)? No. Was her husband Leornard offended by her sometimes expressed anti-semitism? I don't know, it didn't prevent them both being on the Nazi death list.

I don't know about warnings as it may make impressionable young (and maybe older) people think they should not read certain things at all. It would be easy to say a warning or statement of contents can always be ignored but it may carry more weight with some people. A little confession I have just thought of. When I was still a regular library user, they introduced a system of seperately labelled genres or areas of interest in fiction. One of them was Gay and Lesbian at the time. Now I am not Gay or Lesbian and have always been against labelling for personal reasons and cussedness, but even so I did feel some embarrassment when I found many writers I wished to read in that section. It was mild and internal and thankfully I was not discussing either literature or sexuality with anyone so I could avoid possibly being labelled bigot. Nontheless I felt it and a twinge of annoyance at the library for what I still see as a narrowing. Along with those glad to be recognised, there may have been readers who avoided the section. If the books themselves had borne a contents advisory sticker how many people would be happy to be seen publically borrowing or buying them?

Are these recent publications - I would have thought some words would have been changed. But it demonstrates that the attitudes to the black race was across the board disparaging.
Take those words away and someone can easily paint a rosier picture.

@CrunchyBiscs

Are these recent publications - I would have thought some words would have been changed. But it demonstrates that the attitudes to the black race was across the board disparaging. Take those words away and someone can easily paint a rosier picture.

But that's the point CrunchyBiscs, should a rosier picture be painted? Of course if a modern write/programme/film maker is producing something now they can do what they like. Or producers of sanitised historical programmes like Downton Abbey can make eveything seem the best and in tune with modern attitudes. But what do you do with actual books etc. from the past which were written and produced with all the characteristics you mention? If you change some words or depictions are you misrepresenting the author and the times?

The books should never be altered I read a lot of what would now be considered racist, sexist etc. As a child and I knew it was wrong back then. Often the hooks had a an introduction explaining how times changed, I never read that. Similarly older adult.books often had a literary essay in conjunction with the novel explaining points but again I rarely read them. The novels stand alone.

Yes its uncomfortable to read certain words or views but maybe that is why we should still read them, so as the past doesnt get airbrushed. I dont believe in the current issue for removing aspects of history because they're uncomfortable. So for eg the national trust should be explaining why a lot of their properties benefited from some thing like slavery not just ignoring it or people stopping visiting. They're still historical places with lots of art or architectural and social history but the context could be explained more and not the wealth and splendour celebrated.

With books they should stand in their original form. My dc have watched various films and tv from the 60s and 70s with their dad and identified the dodgy bits themselves that are not acceptable on modern society. I read them old novels but explained the words and social history to them as well. Even now I hear my eldest talk to friends on x box and say stuff like that's a bit racist you can't say that to others. If we educate our next generation hopefully they will have a better understanding of acceptable views.

No.

Years (OK decades!) ago when I was a kid I read Tarzan - it was horrendous - he was (very) apparently an eugenicist - about the only reason I can think for this to be read would be as an example of that
Frankly that needed to be banned rather than censored or even with explanation notes.
Even now I can remember how bad it was.

I 'inherited' my childhood Noddy books, from the 80s. Having read the first one, with my own editting, to my then toddler, they have lived in the box ever since. The language shouldn't stand in children's books.

Adults can take a more pragmatic view. Like the furore over the dog in the Dambusters film. The dog's name is historical fact. The dog's grave exists. It is not a name that is acceptable now. We don't know the motivation behind the name.

Another one for disclaimer rather than deletion.

I think it would be great to have the option of reading something without racist or otherwise discriminatory language. Keep the themes etc but offer a choice about what you’re confronted with as you read. I read for pleasure I don’t need a history lesson or talking point.

Embroideredstars, I agree with your points about not airbrushing history and that more should be done to explain the context of historical buildings and statues. Though of course it will always be questionable how much time people have to stop and take in public information as we tend to take what is on the streets for granted despite the demonstrations last year.

As an older person it surprised me how many people were saying they were not taught about the British involvement in the slave trade and the effects of colonialism and empire. I do not have children so maybe the History curriculum has changed a lot as I seem to remember it being covered in depth. And not as a good thing and yes even Churchill was duly criticised.
Obviously I have learned more since and am still learning.
Personally I think it needs to be accepted that the whole country's past and present is deeply bound together with human and economic exploitation. And the fact was that gave many white people in this country that sense of inbuilt superiority which they expressed through derogatory terms for exploited populations. Writers and artists of all kinds weren't immune from those feelings or from social and economic benefitting which is why I think that even non-literary books, popular art, films,music, magazines and so on are important social documents not just entertainment.

So on the whole I do think giving content warning on re-issued books and films would be acceptable. Then people can proceed with caution or not as they choose. A pp mentioned reading James Bond, now he has always been on my personal 'No' list for what I see as misogyny, glorification of violence, gambling and consumerism and Sean Connery. Pure prejudice on my part as I know many enjoy the films and books but it is based on information gleaned from TV programmes, reviews, discussions and obituries. So, a kind of content warning and I avoid.

Editing or erasing history is a pretty scary thing IMO.

I’d think a sticker inside the cover saying something like “warning - old book contains phrases from that time, now widely considered racially inappropriate” or something to that effect.

But absolutely no to editing. Its too 1984.

No.

There's not even a conversation to be had.

Don't touch books. Don't sanitise history.

MaxiPaddy I read Jaws when I was 9 I usually had my nose in a classic novel but somehow got hold of it :) I remember being very confused by a rather intimate passage. I haven’t ever reread it but tissue paper thin walls featured in it.

There is no way that books or films should be changed nor statues pulled down. I despise cancel culture. I like disclaimers. I write this as a person who endured a lot of racist taunting at school and had a couple of incidences as an adult though they were a while ago.

DS makes a lot of jokes about I will cancel you Mum if I want him to do chores just because he knows I don’t like cancel culture. He has had one racist incident at high school and a few comments that were more a reflection of the stupidity of the child asking. His favourite being can you speak China to me.

@MandalaYogaTapestry

I think most readers can put 2 and 2 together and realise that back then such language was unfortunately acceptable. Same applies to many other themes and subjects which used to be depicted as normal but would look terribly out of date today and may cause upset.

Books are a part of historic past and should of course stay as they are. Times have moved on thankfully and that's what we should focus on.

This - precisely.

I think otherwise you’d never draw the line and we’d be editing everything from Dickins to Plato.

I'm torn about this one. I loved Enid Blyton as a child, but she was often unkind to fat children, or foreigners, or gypsies, or people who were not of the same class as the main characters, or were female. I'm happy for her plot lines to be brought up to date because I'm sure as heck not sharing the original ones with my own children.