Watching some USA true crime stuff I think lots are innocent and US system is a bit crap actually

[Stoppissingonmyheather]

V bored and been watching various serial killer/piers Morgan killer interviews and I actually think some of the people could actually be innocent and sounds like police have set them up due to laziness/making name for themselves/believing they have the right person and tampering.. Eg: some serial killer with piers denies it all and the cop involved said he admits to being at a market near the murder scene the day we were there and he looked at a van near there.. Yeah and?? Piers says so what do you have? " A serial killer..." Really??? He says he never gave dna samples but they found his dna on every victim maybe true but has anyone actually investigated this? He showed emotion yet is apparantly a psychopath.
Watching bundy and some other thing and the state police forces admit they didn't work together as they wanted to be the ones to catch the prize so information isn't shared between forces (or wasn't then) others saying they don't have resources to investigate fully or advised to plead guilty for lesser sentence or plead not guilty and get death penalty some don't even go to trial and they don't even have to testify it seems very flawed to me and before you say I am obsessed I have never watched these things before but as its lockdown have run out of stuff to watch and its interesting although a bit shocking does anyone else think so?

America is massively corrupt.

It depends.

If you're try g to argue that Bundy was innocent based on a tv show you half-watched, you need to do more research.

If you're trying to argue that the US (and probably UK) justice system is flawed and that innocent people's lives are ruined, you are correct - google Curtis Flowers

Obviously Buddy is not bloody innocent that is 150% obvious plus he admitted it all! Yes I think USA system is dangerous potentially locking the wrong people up not investigating properly being a bit dumb lacking in funds and no real trial for a lot of people. I have zero sympathy for rapists abusers and murderers but if only given the choice of 40 years in prison or death and no chance to defend yourself or get your side of it heard in court because everyone else has been making deals what would you choose.

Bloody autocorrect bundy

It really is shocking how poor the US justice system is.

I was shocked when I learned about the plea bargain system, and how marginalised (especially Black) people are forced to admit guilt to cases because they could never in their lives afford to fight them and the public defenders don't have their corner.

And the huge differential between sentences for crimes that over-index with black offenders vs white offenders (e.g. cannabis possession vs fraud).

Not to mention the various ways attorneys find to skirt around the Sixth and Fourteenth amendments to maintain racial bias in juries.

It's a huge mess.

It really is. It’s why I always say it is expensive to be poor

There is no such thing as 'the US justice system'.

The US is made up of 50 states, comprising 3143 counties or county equivalents (parishes, boroughs, independent cities) plus the District of Columbia. Criminal justice is administered on a county (or equivalent) level for the most part.

Piers Morgan is probably not a good source for anything except shite.

@Stoppissingonmyheather

Obviously Buddy is not bloody innocent that is 150% obvious plus he admitted it all! Yes I think USA system is dangerous potentially locking the wrong people up not investigating properly being a bit dumb lacking in funds and no real trial for a lot of people. I have zero sympathy for rapists abusers and murderers but if only given the choice of 40 years in prison or death and no chance to defend yourself or get your side of it heard in court because everyone else has been making deals what would you choose.

You're the one that mentioned his case in a thread about flawed justice. I may have misunderstood your posts. They aren't easy to read. Sentences help.

@Veterinari rude.. I would say fuck off but then I would be as bad as you

@mathanxiety I agree piers is a prat it's not him I am talking about. Yes however us system is run County run or whatever it is rubbish

The American justice system is absolutely shocking. Not just innocent people being convicted but wealthy guilty people managing to buy their way out.

There are several documentaries you should watch if this interests you
Central Park Five
The Jinx
Making A Murderer
The Staircase (for an insight into what money can buy you in the justice system)
West Of Memphis

Also reading Helter Skelter is fascinating - the way police / sheriffs departments work together (or rather don’t) certainly explains how there were so many active serial killers in the US prior to computerisation of records

@SinkGirl thanks I think do actually have that book somewhere don't think I have ever read it though its quite unbelievable how bad/corrupt systems can be in somewhere as supposedly 21st century as USA

It’s absolutely fascinating and really shocking. Also seeing how different the prison system was before it became a profitable industry. Manson and most of the male members of the Manson Family had criminal records and had served either paltry sentences or in some cases no sentences at all for quite serious crimes.

Then there’s the fact that you had one department looking for a murder weapon which was in the possession of another department in the same city already and nobody knew... that’s just the start of it. Shocking but so interesting.

The UK justice system is not much better IMO. I don't think we've come very far from the days of throwing Christians to the lions in the name of entertainment TBH.

I'm not sure I would blame the police - it's often the lawyers on both sides manipulating the jury, or trying to.

I agree. You should read The Innocent Man, a non-fiction book by John Grisham. It was horrifying.

The privatisation of prisons is a massive concern. Having quotas to fill is never going to end well

And it’s obvious the entire system is broken.

I don’t know if anyone listed to the season of the Serial podcast set in a court house over a year? The behaviour of some of the judges is shocking, but the whole system sets people up to fail repeatedly. So much of it is avoidable.

It’s not just the police - the entire prosecution side of things is disturbing. You can’t watch something like Making A Murderer or Central Park Five and not be disturbed by the actions of some police officers, prosecutors and defence lawyers. Or The Staircase and the insanity of forensics. Or that Netflix series about the lab tech who was using drugs in the lab... it’s all just absolutely crazy.

There’s also a documentary (can’t remember now the name - maybe Dream / Killer or similar) about one of Kathleen Zellner’s earlier cases. She is really incredible. Thank goodness for her and organisations like The Innocence Project. I can’t imagine spending nearly two decades of your life in prison for something you didn’t do. How do you ever come to terms with that?

@SenecaTrewe

America is massively corrupt.

You would be hard pressed to find any country in the world that isn’t corrupt.

And plea bargaining - plead guilty and you ll get a lighter sentence that'll help get justice!

Listen to Serial s3 to see learn more about how the US system works.

Also listen to throughline. Theres an episode about the police which is just brilliant.

The UK has plea bargaining too ... what else would you call a 50% discount for not contesting a fixed penalty notice ?

PACE had and continues to have a massive positive impact on the UK Justice system.

We're not perfect, but PACE (Police & Criminal Evidence Act) made it much much harder for corrupt and lazy police.

I cannot have faith in a system (eg America) that doesn't have its own version of PACE

@ChampagneCommunist

PACE had and continues to have a massive positive impact on the UK Justice system.

We're not perfect, but PACE (Police & Criminal Evidence Act) made it much much harder for corrupt and lazy police.

I cannot have faith in a system (eg America) that doesn't have its own version of PACE

Well, yes, but there are some fundamental philosophical differences in the way US justice is seen and the way UK justice is seen.

Take illegally obtained evidence, for example. In the US, it's a no no. They have this ridiculous notion that the police have to abide by the law. Hence the doctrine of the fruit of the poison tree and courts being unable to consider evidence obtained illegally. Also judges actually stop to read search warrants and do not always sign them if they aren't up to scratch.

In the UK, no such problem. Illegal evidence ? No problem. Carry on. Warrant ? Well no magistrate has ever refused to issue one, so we have no idea what it would take to give a shit.

And given recent events, I would be very careful about too fulsome praise of the UK police - like police around the world they know how to look after their own.

@SinkGirl

It’s absolutely fascinating and really shocking. Also seeing how different the prison system was before it became a profitable industry. Manson and most of the male members of the Manson Family had criminal records and had served either paltry sentences or in some cases no sentences at all for quite serious crimes.

Then there’s the fact that you had one department looking for a murder weapon which was in the possession of another department in the same city already and nobody knew... that’s just the start of it. Shocking but so interesting.

I've read Helter Skelter a few times; the first being in sixth form where, as an all-female cohort, we wrote and performed a play about Manson's female followers for our main Theatre Studies A Level project.

It's shocking how disjointed the investigation was.

It's shocking how disjointed the investigation was.

At least the Yorkshire Ripper was caught immediately with no errors in the investigation, eh ?

Maybe we need to be a tad careful in too much comparison ? It is, after all, the thief of joy.