Where do 'White People' come from? MN Historians, Researchers, Anthropologists, please come in.

[CantStayAsleep]

Forgive me, this may be a simple question. It's 4am, can't sleep and a million things have already raced through my mind. I need an answer to this and Google is flooding me with tons of information/articles that aren't getting down to the bottom line. Atleast I can't find the bottom line myself. So over to you MNers. Help me when you're up and can be arsed. Thanks

If Black people = African descent (as many forms state and a lot of people have said), I take this to mean Black people have African ancestry, regardless if it's dating 1 generation or 400 generations ago. So what is white descent? Where have White people descended from?

I think it's a massive leap to go from 'some animals have same-sex sex' to 'some animals are gay'. Some animals also go in for incest, sex with dead bodies, etc. etc. I'd say homosexuality is not just about what you do with your genitals.

But that is fascinating about farming being the beginning of patriarchy. Terrifying!

This is such an interesting thread.

I think it's a massive leap to go from 'some animals have same-sex sex' to 'some animals are gay'. Some animals also go in for incest, sex with dead bodies, etc. etc. I'd say homosexuality is not just about what you do with your genitals.
Indeed. My dog is in love with a particular cushion, I'm trying my best to discourage the relationship.

Thing is, without farming would the planet be able to support so many people? Not that its be a bad thing if we were less numerous.

I think it's a massive leap to go from 'some animals have same-sex sex' to 'some animals are gay'. Some animals also go in for incest, sex with dead bodies, etc. etc. I'd say homosexuality is not just about what you do with your genitals.

In the case of Mary, the albatross, she set up home with her female partner, produced eggs every year (infertile of course) and had an enduring relationship. Not just occasional shagging like primates.

I believe she had male partners who she outlived before though. It's an interesting topic.

@Kendodd

Thing is, without farming would the planet be able to support so many people? Not that its be a bad thing if we were less numerous.

No. Farming allowed the population to increase despite some disadvantages.

@Kendodd

I think it's a massive leap to go from 'some animals have same-sex sex' to 'some animals are gay'. Some animals also go in for incest, sex with dead bodies, etc. etc. I'd say homosexuality is not just about what you do with your genitals. Indeed. My dog is in love with a particular cushion, I'm trying my best to discourage the relationship.

@MrsTerryPratchett

I think it's a massive leap to go from 'some animals have same-sex sex' to 'some animals are gay'. Some animals also go in for incest, sex with dead bodies, etc. etc. I'd say homosexuality is not just about what you do with your genitals.

In the case of Mary, the albatross, she set up home with her female partner, produced eggs every year (infertile of course) and had an enduring relationship. Not just occasional shagging like primates.

I believe she had male partners who she outlived before though. It's an interesting topic.

Sure, but it is still not (IMO) possible to say that's homosexuality or even comparable to it. It's attributing human-like motives and emotions to animals when we don't have any evidence.

To the best of my knowledge there's no strong evidence that birds choose same-sex mates as a preference; it's usually correlated with lack of available opposite-sex partners.

With penguins there are - the gay penguins at Bristol and Berlin have succesfully raised chicks.

There are also penguin prostitutes as well, believe it or not. As seen in the Humboldt penguin:

www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/06/penguin-prostitutes/559133/

Sorry, but that's such nonsense.

They're not 'gay penguins' or 'penguin prostitutes'.

They're animals, and we're attributing human motives to them because it makes a good story. It's sentimental.

We do not know why animals in zoos behave in ways they never would in the wild, but we do know that they do.

(Incidentally, I do think it's rather ironic that you're citing rearing a chick - ie., raising a family - as the thing that validates homosexuality!)

A lot of the time behaviours that are useful from an evolutionary point of view have side effects that are not useful. E.g. our useful trait for seeking high fat, high carb foods in the wild (helps maximise calories and keep us alive) has a side effect of making us overeat when given the chance.

I think it’s most likely that our evolutionary useful trait of wanting sex with opposite sex people for reproduction “misfires” and makes some people sexually attracted to those they can’t reproduce with. (Not just homosexuality by the way, I mean also people who are attracted to people they can’t have children with, fetishes, also the dog’s cushion! Or indeed, sex with contraception - from an evolutionary perspective it’s useless. But we can’t switch off our sexual preferences.)

Another thing I find fascinating is the movement of modern humans around the world over the last few hundred years. We wear our evolution and ancestry on our faces. If you watch the opening ceremony of the Olympics when all the countries teams come in carrying their flags, you can see this and how we've travelled. I always get quite emotional watching

How do you mean, @kendodd?

Your post is making me think of how you see really specific gestures and habits of expression cross different cultures, but I don't know if that is what you mean?

But not many mammals contribute equally to child rearing, and I dont think that social bonding is a thing among many species. Theres a lot of variation. So what's the driver for non hetero sexual activity among other species that dont have these drivers then?

I mean our physical looks and how they trace our ancestry. In the Olympics you can see this movement of people, in that the peoples of every country lined up behind their flag.

Would there need to be a driver?

This is such a fascinating thread and a brilliant example of why I love Mumsnet. Partly for the intellect & expertise, and partly because this:

We are a curious, mobile and adaptable animal. Arguably that's part of what makes us "human". Add to that the omnivorous ability, and you have a Chieftain tank of a mammal that can roll across disparate environments in the blink of a evolutionary eye.

is the best description of the human race I have ever read.

Your post is making me think of how you see really specific gestures and habits of expression cross different cultures, but I don't know if that is what you mean?
I think they do as well though don't they. Things like head shaking for 'no' and waving goodbye. I wonder how widespread they are how things like that travel.
Human being are amazing!

Maybe that is why men who have older brothers are more likely to be gay? Scientists found that the more biological (from the same mother) older brothers a man has, the more likely he is to be gay. There was no such link for men who were adopted into families with older brothers, or who had older brothers from their father's side; the link was purely how many sons a woman had borne
So the female body retains a memory of which children it's borne to cause epigenic(?) changes to the next foetus?

YY! It's so weird when you think about it - why on earth would smiling be so widely understood? I know it's not universal and there are cultures where people don't use smiles in the same way, but it's just amazing to me there's any consensus when you think how different spoken languages are.

@SleepingStandingUp - my memory is really hazy but I think there is evidence that adopted children follow the same pattern? So if it is epigenetic it isn't purely that.

@7Days

But not many mammals contribute equally to child rearing, and I dont think that social bonding is a thing among many species. Theres a lot of variation. So what's the driver for non hetero sexual activity among other species that dont have these drivers then?

Perhaps more bisexuality than homosexuality? So if there's an over abundance of men competing for women a way to reduce the number of men fighting for the woman?

@SarahAndQuack

Would there need to be a driver?

I don't know Sarah. I always thought that attributes get selected out, unless they confer an advantage in the wild, so to speak. I posted above that in the higher primates, sex serves as a social bond, and offspring need a lot of investment - therefore sexually active adults who contribute to the young of the tribe help the overall success of the band. So it species that don't have these drivers, I wonder what it is

Bisexuality makes sense in an evolutionary sense, now you say it

YY! It's so weird when you think about it - why on earth would smiling be so widely understood? I know it's not universal and there are cultures where people don't use smiles in the same way, but it's just amazing to me there's any consensus when you think how different spoken languages are.
Actually I've heard smiling is one of the very few universals. Blind people smile.

@7days, oh, I see what you mean, sorry.

Would the driver not simply be that it feels good? Animals will do things like scratch against a post, not because they actually need to exfoliate their skin but because it feels good. So maybe same-sex sex is like that?

I assume the endorphins would be generally helpful as well - stress and pain shorten your life span so maybe having something that removes those, even temporarily, is just worth it in itself?