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Can someone please explain to me in laymen terms what Nicola Sturgeon is supposed to have done?

87 replies

Loopylou6 · 04/03/2021 15:08

Smile
OP posts:
StatisticallyChallenged · 04/03/2021 18:16

@Inkanta

So basically a man is accused of harassing women and the only person who is likely to be punished is a woman? Is that right?

Yes that's how I see it. A alleged sex pest situation, but it couldn't be proven in court. So it's Sturgeon's fault.

It's not the fact it wasn't proven in court that's the issue.

Before it went anywhere near the police and a criminal case there was an internal scottish government complaints policy created, and then an internal investigation conducted. That was botched, in essence, resulting in a judicial review which reduced the original investigation.

There are issues about Sturgeon breaking the ministerial code over her actions and what she disclosed/didn't disclose and when.

The police investigation and the criminal case comes after most of the stuff which is currently being discussed in the committee at the moment. There are issues with the criminal case too.

Inkanta · 04/03/2021 18:17

Clearly there were issues of process in the handling of this situation, but there is an ongoing enquiry and a level of scrutiny directed at Nicola Sturgeon which is intense. There has been nowhere near this level of scrutiny of the government in London

Exactly.

StatisticallyChallenged · 04/03/2021 18:21

I think the fact this ended up in a very high profile criminal case, with a lot of pretty sensationalist reporting (there was a report with an epic rogue's gallery of murderers IIRC) is meaning it's become a bigger deal than if it had remained at the civil case level.

There should probably be more scrutiny of many other things too, but that doesn't mean this isn't worth of scrutiny.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

Inkanta · 04/03/2021 18:26

Was it established that he is a sex pest?

Nipoleonthenoncommital · 04/03/2021 18:33

As Ruth Davidson said he is an appalling misogynist and dreadful human being. Regardless, the ministerial code is in place for a reason and should be adhered to. The lack of scrutiny in Westminster should not be utilised as a reason to demote this shitshow down the headlines. Westminster also has the HOL to scrutinise law making, something Holyrood could well be doing with.

reprehensibleme · 04/03/2021 18:58

Sturgeon puts herself in a position on the moral high ground compared to Boris Johnson, and continually paints the SNP and Scottish Govt as 'better' and more honest than the Tories and Westminster. If you're going to take that position you've got to be absolutely squeaky clean, which, it appears, in this case, she isn't.

Also, those denigrating 'Wings', the YES supporters on here during the 2014 referendum held 'Wings' up to be the arbiter of all that was good, true and right with the pro indy side. What's happened?

WhiskyIrnBru · 04/03/2021 19:00

Schrödinger's Sturgeon.

Simultaneously covering up for Alex Salmond whilst apparently trying to take him down.

Some feat.

WhiskyIrnBru · 04/03/2021 19:01

Ps. This is Mumsnet so you'll get lots of nice unionist bias.

Big BOjo, Davidson love in.Wink

Dinnafashyersel · 04/03/2021 19:02

Quentin the Judicial Review preceded the criminal case. The Scottish Govt conceded the JR on the basis that the workplace civil procedure was tainted by bias. They didn't even meet standards of investigation let alone proof.

AS sought JR because the Scot Govt informed him they were about to go public with the findings of this flawed process. The JR set aside the whole investigation.

LemonSwan · 04/03/2021 19:14

I am like you OP I am confused.

What I am gathering is Salmond is out for Sturgeons blood because she both did and did not cover up for him. At the same time he is out for blood for those who bought forward the claims.

It doesnt really make a lot of sense to me. The common denominator is salmond being a £$$%$££

LemonSwan · 04/03/2021 19:15

Said much more eloquently by WhiskyIrnBru

Schrödinger's Sturgeon

Inkanta · 04/03/2021 19:23

What I am gathering is Salmond is out for Sturgeons blood because she both did and did not cover up for him. At the same time he is out for blood for those who bought forward the claims

Yes you're probably close to the truth there!

Justanotherlurker · 04/03/2021 20:16

This is a good recap for some of those on here who are still trying to whatabout the tories, but she is a woman etc.

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1367421967939366913.html

StatisticallyChallenged · 04/03/2021 20:28

[quote Justanotherlurker]This is a good recap for some of those on here who are still trying to whatabout the tories, but she is a woman etc.

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1367421967939366913.html[/quote]
There's a few inaccuracies in that thread ( I read it earlier by fluke!), mostly around timing of things.

LemonSwan · 04/03/2021 20:44

Yes you're probably close to the truth there!
Well I heard it from the horses mouth. All I have to go on is a radio clip of Salmond blabbering on at the injustice of it all. How the victims should be punished and how sturgeon should face repercussions. It didnt make much sense.

Dingleydel · 04/03/2021 21:03

That was botched, in essence, resulting in a judicial review which reduced the original investigation.

Ok this is the bit I’m missing. How was it botched? What is Sturgeon guilty of? Was it that they/she tried to make the claims go away or was it that she tried to escalate claims of his crimes, supposedly to get him out of the way so she could further her career? Was it a bit of both? If it’s the later how can anyone be sure of her motive? I’d find it hard to agree that a woman believing and wanting to escalate the claims of women who may have been abused should lose her job for doing so. I can’t seem to find a definitive answer anywhere.

Inkanta · 04/03/2021 21:09

Yes so did these bullying/ sexual harassment behaviours take place in the workplace and if so will he get away with it because the inquiry was mishandled. And if so is he now permitted to throw his weight around and shout blue murder.

StatisticallyChallenged · 04/03/2021 21:30

@Dingleydel

That was botched, in essence, resulting in a judicial review which reduced the original investigation.

Ok this is the bit I’m missing. How was it botched? What is Sturgeon guilty of? Was it that they/she tried to make the claims go away or was it that she tried to escalate claims of his crimes, supposedly to get him out of the way so she could further her career? Was it a bit of both? If it’s the later how can anyone be sure of her motive? I’d find it hard to agree that a woman believing and wanting to escalate the claims of women who may have been abused should lose her job for doing so. I can’t seem to find a definitive answer anywhere.

OK, trying to explain the accusations/facts without giving a slant...not easy!

The judicial review was launched because Salmond (via lawyers) claimed there were significant failings with the complaints policy/procedure which the government had created. In essence this policy was created "at pace" as the politicians love to say and doesn't seem to have been very good - indeed it has never been used since and the Scottish parliament is currently working on a new one. Among the claimed flaws is that it is essentially retrospective - they created a policy which would cover not just future former ministers but people who were already former ministers, who were not consulted. The complaints process found against him (while he was still arguing with them), they said a statement was going to be made about the outcome, he threatened an interdict government backed down. Whad'ya know, few hours later it gets leaked to the Daily Record. At this point, Salmond sues, launching a judicial review.

As the judicial review progressed the government were required to disclose information. They made a bit of a mess of this leading to their counsel being "professionally embarrassed" as they weren't releasing info they should have, but the big thing which came out (which wasn't even in the original petition) was that the investigating officer had prior contact with the two complainers which was expressely forbidden by the policy. So even if the policy was valid they didn't apply it correctly.

The government ended up conceding the case which meant that the report was reduced.

Sturgeon approved the policy.

What she's actually under investigation for is breaking the ministerial code, by allegedly lying to parliament about when she knew about the complaints, then failing to correct the record when she was "reminded" that this isn't when she first heard (she disputes this), failing to act on legal advice (it's alleged the judicial review should have been conceded before it was and failing to do so cost the taxpayer more money), various other things besides.

Salmond is also enraged that she refused to intervene when he advised her that his legal advice said the procedure was not legally sound. He asked her to intervene to request mediation - something which is in the policy for current ministers but not former ministers, and therefore one of the alleged "flaws" of the policy. She basically strung him along a bit then refused to. Those who claim she broke the code here say she did so because as a minister she has a duty to act if she is aware that the government may be acting illegally.

She also didn't make a record of the meetings with Salmond for months after, also in breach of code allegedly.

There's a lot more mess around it with leak allegations and so on. Plus the criminal trial, which is a big fat mess with even more allegations of setups and conspiracy!

StatisticallyChallenged · 04/03/2021 21:35

@Inkanta

Yes so did these bullying/ sexual harassment behaviours take place in the workplace and if so will he get away with it because the inquiry was mishandled. And if so is he now permitted to throw his weight around and shout blue murder.
TBH, I'm not sure he has got away with it any more than he would have if it had just stopped at the complaints process IYSWIM?

Complaints process basically (we don't know details because it was reduced) said he was guilty (in a non court sense) of incidents involving two women. He went to court when this was publicised as he didn't want it to be. But that was all that process could really do - they couldn't "punish" him as he was already an ex minister. Well, publish it and obviously make it very hard for him to re-enter politics directly or indirectly.

Which is basically where he is anyway. He can kick and shout all he wants, but he's untouchable politically.

Justanotherlurker · 04/03/2021 21:42

There's a few inaccuracies in that thread ( I read it earlier by fluke!), mostly around timing of things

The gist of it is accurate though, it isn't a simple case of NS being singled out because she is a woman, or that it is some Tory conspiracy, AS being a sexual predator using male privilidge etc.

It is sinister.

StatisticallyChallenged · 04/03/2021 21:50

@Justanotherlurker

There's a few inaccuracies in that thread ( I read it earlier by fluke!), mostly around timing of things

The gist of it is accurate though, it isn't a simple case of NS being singled out because she is a woman, or that it is some Tory conspiracy, AS being a sexual predator using male privilidge etc.

It is sinister.

Oh I wasn't having a dig - I was just mentioning it in case it caused confusion
Griefmonster · 04/03/2021 22:09

There are a number of inaccuracies in posts that people are saying are helpful.

It is a very complex story and UK level reporting is not helped by frequently confusing which bits of the story relate to which "player" and what role they were in at the time.

Posters are also stating as facts, statements that are directly contradicted by others. So I would take what people are stating here with a pinch (bucket) of salt.

Nick Eardley and Philip Sim on twitter are fairly accurate in their reporting.

Dingleydel · 04/03/2021 22:37

StatisticallyChallenged thanks so much for that breakdown. I think I understand a bit more now.

AyeKarumba · 04/03/2021 22:40

Where is the censure for Boris Johnson lying through his teeth to parliament on a regular basis, unlawfully proroguing Parliament and Matt Hancock giving millions to all of his mates?*

What @beguilingeyes said!!!

Twintub · 04/03/2021 22:45

During her evidence given over 8hrs yesterday she was actually asked if she should apologise she declined to apologise for something a man had done.

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