how do we help my DS to sleep through the night, and not get up to snack??

[SpanishFly]

It's is becoming a total nightmare.
In the interests of full disclosure, he has aspergers (and PDA).

We have chats with him every few days - your sleep cycle is mucked up, you need to stay in bed if you wake, just don't get up, etc etc etc. He uses a sleep app, we take his phone off him.
But almost every night, he gets up and goes for a snack. We have no clue how long he is up, but the evidence that he has been up is always there - lights on which weren't when we went to bed, kitchen cupboard open, less milk in the fridge etc. Today I got up to find Celebration wrappers AND a crisp bag in the bin. It is wearing me out, so I have no clue how he must feel.
He is very well fed during the day, he has never slept well, but this is wrecking any chance he has of rectifying his sleep cycle.
He will not listen to anything we ask him to do. Any tips at all?

@SavoyCabbage

I'd throw it all away and start again. Not in a dramatic display but just to have a fresh start.

He probably needs more protein at this age. Eggs, tuna, beans, nuts for snacks instead of crisps. And bananas. Great filling snack.

I totally understand the comments saying to get rid - but what about my other son, firstly why shouldn't he be allowed sweet treats, since he is eating more than enough healthy food; and also isn't it going to then make him more obsessive over food etc if he sees that the treats got chucked out/given away because of someone else's actions?

I've never been one to have much in the way of sweets in the house unless someone buys a box as a gift, in which case they don't last long. My idea of a middle of the night snack is toast, maybe a sandwich or some cereal with a drink of milk. If the op is worried about her son having unhealthy eating habits, she could just not buy sweets on a regular basis. She says he eats decent meals, they generally eat a lot at fifteen.

I don't think there is anything wrong in him getting up and having something to eat but I would would insist he clears up after himself and turns the light off when he is finished. As for sleep, he'll sleep well enough when he needs it. His mind is probably buzzing with ideas when he wakes and that should not be stifled.

You don't have to Chuck them out right in front of him. If they are left over from Christmas then they are going to be gone sooner or later anyway. It's not going to do your other son any harm whatsoever to not have crisps etc either. There will be other snacks to replace them. Your younger son might like them.

Would a later evening meal have an impact?

@SavoyCabbage

You don't have to Chuck them out right in front of him. If they are left over from Christmas then they are going to be gone sooner or later anyway. It's not going to do your other son any harm whatsoever to not have crisps etc either. There will be other snacks to replace them. Your younger son might like them.

Sorry, I'm maybe not wording it correctly - my other son LOVES healthy stuff, loves fruit, loves veg, loves wholemeal toast, porridge etc. He also enjoys some treats like chocolate. I am aware that I wouldn't dramatically thrown everything in the bin with them watching (I personally wouldn't bin them at all, as that's needless waste, but that's not the point here), however if DS2 is well aware that there are tubs of chocs in the house, then suddenly they've vanished, I just feel that that isn't sending out the correct message to him either. I just feel like, either way, there's an unhealthy message being sent out to one of them re hiding/chucking out food - one can't control his eating, the other absolutely can.

Would preparing healthy snack pots or bottles of milk in the fridge he can help himself to help? So he can have milk but then no danger of using it all so none left for breakfast.

Then the remaining Christmas chocolate i would split equally between all that like/eat it. If your eldest eats all his within a few days so be it, if your youngest is more responsible and eats his over the course of a couple of weeks he's happy too. Don't replace what is eaten.

Or get them each a box for treats - so enough crisps for a week, enough chocolates for the week and let them decide how/when they eat it. Make fruit/veg unlimited and have it prepared in the fridge for easy snacking.

@SpanishFly
I totally understand the comments saying to get rid - but what about my other son, firstly why shouldn't he be allowed sweet treats

But how do you expect anything to change if you don’t get rid of all the stuff you don’t want your ds1 to eat? You’re self sabotaging and not helping him. If he knows it’s there, of course he’s going to go for it. Maybe ds2 can have some when you go shopping? A once a week treat rather than constantly available.

I'd just say keep sweets to the minimum and put them somewhere out of sight at night time.

Other than that, your son is not a small child any more and there's nothing wrong with making himself a snack if he wakes in the night.

[quote Cherrysoup]@SpanishFly
I totally understand the comments saying to get rid - but what about my other son, firstly why shouldn't he be allowed sweet treats

But how do you expect anything to change if you don’t get rid of all the stuff you don’t want your ds1 to eat? You’re self sabotaging and not helping him. If he knows it’s there, of course he’s going to go for it. Maybe ds2 can have some when you go shopping? A once a week treat rather than constantly available.[/quote]
I don't "expect things to change" until I've done something - I'm literally on here asking for advice on how to go about doing that without my other child feeling like he's being punished or blaming his brother for having sweets binned.
And I've posted again to say I like the ideas of eg having a snack in his room so he can eat that if he gets up, rather than raiding the sweets. I KNOW fine well that I'm fucking up, I don't need you to hammer home that I'm self-sabotaging.
Also, we don't go shopping, so unfortunately that option isn't there. But yes, I'll have a think about when sweets are "allowed" and then they're not for the rest of the time

but what about my other son, firstly why shouldn't he be allowed sweet treats

But why do they need to be in the house? Why can't you buy treats as and when? I dislike the idea of a treat drawer or cupboard, get an ice cream when out, a pack of crisps or chocolate bar when passing a shop. Treats aren't an everyday thing.

@Almostslimjim

but what about my other son, firstly why shouldn't he be allowed sweet treats

But why do they need to be in the house? Why can't you buy treats as and when? I dislike the idea of a treat drawer or cupboard, get an ice cream when out, a pack of crisps or chocolate bar when passing a shop. Treats aren't an everyday thing.

But I've answered this - I DON'T buy them, generally. We were given loads at Xmas

Much sympathy. With PDA anxiety if there's food down there that he's not supposed to eat when he wakes then that's going to nag at him, and that's on top of the not planning ahead about who else might need milk etc.

Keeping smaller amounts of things available has worked sometimes for us, like single pint of milk in the fridge and three in the freezer - not many people can be bothered to defrost one for a random snack. It has involved keeping some foods out of the way in the garage or the car boot. Amounts is an issue for us, if there's a whole loaf or a whole box of cereal then the drive to get to 'all gone' can be a thing, so we put small amounts in a container and put the rest away where only adults can access it. It does involve explaining to other kids in the family why we do what we do.

I like the 4-5 options of things to do, that's a good one.

Some other things to think about:

Is your DS definitely getting enough calories during the day? For a growing/developing teenager?

Do meals include a sweet element, providing additional nutrition rather than the poorer nutritional content of most sweets/chocolates?

Is he drinking enough fluids during the day?

Does he wake at the same time every night?

Like a PP’s idea of sharing out the remaining sweets, each chooses when to eat them and once they’re gone, they’re gone. DS will then naturally revert to eating food in the house.

Also agree - if the only way forward is a snack, help him prepare something to have by the bed (to help him develop knowledge and skills for snacks): Crackers and cheese, fruit and cheese, milk and a sandwich, nuts, cereal and milk.

Have you tried him having a snack at 8pm, for example, so the nutrition and calories are on board for him to go through the night?

If he has a Medic/care team, have you checked this situation out with them, to eliminate an underlying cause?

Hope you can find a good solution soon, OP.

Many historians believe we traditionally had a two stage night where people would often get up at around 2-4am, eat and drink, chat, cavort, write letters etc. This sleeping all the way through is quite a 'new' thing as a species. Many people find themselves waking at around 3-4am (I certainly do) so he probably isnt doing anything unusual in that way.

How about making him a sandwich and a glass of milk and leaving it in his room/outside his bedroom door. Would he eat that? It might help him eat healthier (rather than sneaking chocolates) and would reduce the noise of him wandering the house. You could combine that with a list of quiet, in room, occupations that he can choose from when he wakes too.

@Pugliandreamer

Many historians believe we traditionally had a two stage night where people would often get up at around 2-4am, eat and drink, chat, cavort, write letters etc. This sleeping all the way through is quite a 'new' thing as a species. Many people find themselves waking at around 3-4am (I certainly do) so he probably isnt doing anything unusual in that way.

How about making him a sandwich and a glass of milk and leaving it in his room/outside his bedroom door. Would he eat that? It might help him eat healthier (rather than sneaking chocolates) and would reduce the noise of him wandering the house. You could combine that with a list of quiet, in room, occupations that he can choose from when he wakes too.

yeah, I think that's what we'll try tonight - a snack in his room, which he can have if he wakes. I am also hoping he isn't cavorting during the night Thanks, it all makes sense. I wake every night, and it wouldn't cross my mind to get up, so I'm probably basing too much on that, rather than realising that everyone is different x

@MichelleofzeResistance

Much sympathy. With PDA anxiety if there's food down there that he's not supposed to eat when he wakes then that's going to nag at him, and that's on top of the not planning ahead about who else might need milk etc.

Keeping smaller amounts of things available has worked sometimes for us, like single pint of milk in the fridge and three in the freezer - not many people can be bothered to defrost one for a random snack. It has involved keeping some foods out of the way in the garage or the car boot. Amounts is an issue for us, if there's a whole loaf or a whole box of cereal then the drive to get to 'all gone' can be a thing, so we put small amounts in a container and put the rest away where only adults can access it. It does involve explaining to other kids in the family why we do what we do.

I like the 4-5 options of things to do, that's a good one.

Thank you. Yes, I think that's it - the need to just keep eating with no off switch. Your idea of tubs etc is good - I had hoped we wouldn't need to do something like that, but I suspect there's no option :/

I don't have children but I do have sleep issues and sometimes when I wake in the night I have to get up and drink a cup of tea/read/do a crossword etc just to get sleepy enough to get back to sleep.
Lying there trying to sleep can be counterproductive.
If you can lock your kitchen I'd do that at night.
Leave water/milk and a snack in his room so if he wakes he is not hungry/thirsty and he can go downstairs to the lounge to read or watch tv but no binging on junk or drinking all the milk.

My situation is different but I would like to contribute. My son has a condition which leaves him constantly hungry - as a family we have to understand and adapt (this includes his brother). We don't have high calorie snacks in the house - we are careful with Christmas sweets - a small number gone by the end of the holiday. My son was relieved when we did this because he wasn't taking food at night - nothing to take so he stayed in bed or just made a drink. We are all happier as a result. Keeping sweet stuff in the house just so you are fair to his brother - really isn't worth it.

With regards to letting his brother have a treat, our younger ds knows that he gets treats with movie and a pizza on Friday, he understands we can't have treats in all the time. Before lockdown, he picked the sweets on the way home from school. Atm I get them in the weekly food shop and tuck them out the way until film night. Although like you, we have had lots of extra treate given to us over the Christmas period, some I am giving away because its stuff none of us really like and it would just get eaten for the sake of it, the rest was shared out.

0n another point that's been mentioned, when you tried melation did you try it in tablet form and take it whole? Is he struggling to fall asleep in the first place, so is getting restless and getting up after trying to sleep or is he falling asleep okay and then waking? It took us a while to realise ds1 had actually been awake from when he went to bed until he finally had enough of lying there and got up in the early hours. For him the table melatonin was too slow, he needed the tablet crushed or liquid form to help him get to sleep. But then once asleep he was far less likely to stir.