Is this another way women are inadvertently disadvantaging themselves at work?

[LooseMooseHoose]

I keep reading on various threads on MN that an OP's partner cannot possibly help out because they are more senior at work, are paid more and therefore their job is more important and the family must do anything (ie OP pick up all the slack) to avoid him potentially loosing his job. But is this just yet another way women are being conditioned to continue as primary carer and housekeeper?

Sheryl Sandberg's quote of "don't leave before you leave" really resonates with me, part of the idea being that as you move further up the career ladder, you have more flexibility. People will reschedule meetings for the most senior invitee, they will accept a senior person starting an hour later because of unforseen circumstances. Or indeed accept a short-term dip in performance and availability due to a global pandemic affecting childcare..!

But both the previous paragraphs cannot be true. I accept some men (and women!) will have jobs where this simply does not apply. But I can't help thinking that the average manager-bloke in the office, has much more flexibility than either they believe, or allow their wives to believe?

Definitely. We were initially told that husbands would have to do their bit with time off when the kids initially stopped (before furlough was a thing) but my husband earns double what I earn so it just would not have made any sense!

He’s able to work his 70 hours a week because I’m here for the kids as well. It does annoy me sometimes.

Another thought to add to this - I've noticed at work it's less socially acceptable almost for men to take more of the slack. I'm in a male dominated workplace and I've noticed that while I had been able to WFH one day per week (before COVID) or had to leave at 6 on the dot, this wasn't "expected" or tolerated as much by men with families.
One senior guy had 5 kids and had a reputation for not being reliable, I didn't know the situation that well but it looked to me like they were annoyed he wasn't attending meetings in the evening and various things like that!

I’ve just returned to work after my maternity leave and have opted for less than full time. It is giving me the right balance, particularly at the moment with my job being so stressful. For us this is the right decision as I want to be the one at home and couldn’t take a career break easily without consequences for training down the line (I’m medical), otherwise I would of taken a couple of years out.
That aside my husband’s role is not amenable to being part time- he is in the military so the only way would be to leave and become a reservist. He only has 8 years left before he has done a full career. The military is getting better at recognising spouses have their own careers but it is still pretty shocking. We’ve had several friends who have left as their spouse’s career has taken off and they don’t want to deal with the issues that come with one of them being in the military. The military have a huge retention issue because of it as life isn’t amenable to a one income household anymore. Unfortunately there is still an attitude that a spouse’s career isn’t as important by many in the military.

OP I think you have hit the nail on the head with how some people (usually men) use work as a way of escaping some domestic responsibilities.

I wonder if 5pm government press conferences are designed at that time for that reason?

I keep reading on various threads on MN that an OP's partner cannot possibly help out because they are more senior at work, are paid more and therefore their job is more important and the family must do anything (ie OP pick up all the slack) to avoid him potentially loosing his job. But is this just yet another way women are being conditioned to continue as primary carer and housekeeper?

Of course.

Sheryl Sandberg's quote of "don't leave before you leave" really resonates with me, part of the idea being that as you move further up the career ladder, you have more flexibility. People will reschedule meetings for the most senior invitee, they will accept a senior person starting an hour later because of unforseen circumstances. Or indeed accept a short-term dip in performance and availability due to a global pandemic affecting childcare..!

Sheryl Sandberg really annoyed me with the "we're our only true impediment" tripe - her own privilege blinded her to the more structrual impediments - which she did later acknowledge to be fair to her.

However I will say that the further up the ladder I've climbed, the more flexibility I've received, just as per the above. That is absoutely true.

I earn more than DH, I work longer hours too. Of course he has to pick up the slag, we have clearly defined who does what and it works. ... I'm in a partnership not servitude.

I think some of the problems woman have is
a) asking for help
b) thinking that it's quicker / better if they do it themselves
c) children are their responsibility

There does seem to be a slippery slope in a lot of families. You start off with “DH earns more so if one of us loses our job it should be me” and end up a week later with “of course DH should get an uninterrupted 8-hour workday while I do all the homeschooling alongside my own job, he earns more.”

The number of MN husbands who think working from home means they can disappear off upstairs at 8.30am and reappear some time after 5 when dinner is ready, when their partners also work from home and now are dealing with the children too, is really depressing.

I earn more than DH, I work longer hours too. Of course he has to pick up the slag, we have clearly defined who does what and it works

What does the slag think about it?

Well said Golden! You’d think women may have been conditioned or something...

He thinks it's harder for men to get time off for child caring responsibilities, and that duty is expected to fall to their wife/partner. I know a couple of the male employees had to real fight to get time off at all in the first lockdown to look after their kids, whereas the women with children, myself included, were offered some flexibility without even having to ask

This. I found my work was very accommodating with time off for various child related stuff. However if DH asked for the same considerations he was usually met with “can’t your wife do it?”

It’s a vicious cycle. Men don’t get given flexibility, as their wives are expected to pick up childcare slack. So women do it, and then the gender paygap increases as employers don’t promote women who take time off for kids, or women go part time.

Then women are not paid as much- plus the “female” careers are often seen as less valued so pay is lower, so they give up work and pick up the slack, so the husband doesn’t need to, so employers don’t expect men to be taking time off for children.

Women do enable this to some extent by giving in. If I couldn’t take the time off DH had to, and eventually his employers accepted this and became more flexible with male employees.

And it’s self-perpetuating. How many of the managers saying “can’t your wife do it?” are themselves expecting their own wives to do it?

yes me and my exh did the same jobs - strangely I was always able to leave on time to relieve the nanny/do the nursery pick up. I was always able to take time off when the kids were ill, I was always able to come home early if I was called to school. I was never late to a parents evening because a "meeting ran over"

Yes and my couple friends who are working from home together? The woman is still doing the cooking and shopping, and bearing the brunt of the home education. The man? He just fucks off to his home office.

Fundamentally, most women I know (including me) will always out their children first. I don't know any man that does that.
Therefore, women have lower paid jobs, and are taking the majority of the homeschool burden etc. It's a massive, unspoken about, issue and it makes me

The title of this thread puts the responsibility on the women. But I don't think that's the case. I certainly did not enable my exH to be like that. Society did far more I would say.

My friends who are bearing the brunt of home education aren't doing it willingly. What's the answer though? For me it was leaving my H (although there were other reasons too). As the other thread says, this doesn't start in marriage, it starts in the womb.

@SomewhatBored

While woman choose to enjoy the lifestyle offered by a husband's higher salary rather than focusing on building their own careers, nothing will ever change.

So you don’t think working mothers face any obstacles/discrimination in education/work place?

Actually scrap mothers, women.

Is it women’s fault for not ‘focusing on their career’ for the significant pay gap between women and men?

Why is it women who over represent the lowest paid jobs? Again is this because they haven’t focused on their career? Would you say this about someone who cleans offices? Or are you only talking about ‘professional’ women?

@coronafiona

Fundamentally, most women I know (including me) will always out their children first. I don't know any man that does that. Therefore, women have lower paid jobs, and are taking the majority of the homeschool burden etc. It's a massive, unspoken about, issue and it makes me

And society doesn’t value like it values men making money!

I agree makes me

When we had childcare emergencies DH had to fight tooth and nail to get the same flexibility at work as female colleagues...in a female dominated sector. I once literally overheard one of his managers saying, in the background during a phone call while we were sorting one of us to meet dd at hospital after the school rang,
“For goodness sake, where’s her mother?!”

Her mother was due to sit a professional examination in twenty minutes and this was the only time he’d asked in seven years of parenting.

I have a middle management job in the public sector as as a head of team i can flex my diary and encourage my team to flex diaries. I may if found it harder in the past but now I work full time and can juggle my diary to attend parents evening, assembly and sports day.

My previous manager was a man with two young children and he also set a good example by sharing child care responsibility with his wife.

I think people in a lot of roles can juggle diaries:

My biggest problem is I don't have enough hours in the day especially at work so I don't try to do pick ups or drop offs

I think people have it the wrong way around. When we make home expectations more equal, we will make salaries more equal - not the other way around.

. I earned a lot more than stbxh but still ended up being the one on the hook for sick days, emergencies, world book Day, dinner prep etc etc etc. He never truly felt that it was his responsibility, and I ultimately cared more about outcomes for the kids. Society also judges mothers far more than fathers.

Sort some of that, and then more women will take on the bigger jobs.

So you don’t think working mothers face any obstacles/discrimination in education/work place?

Actually scrap mothers, women

Is it women’s fault for not ‘focusing on their career’ for the significant pay gap between women and men?

is it women who over represent the lowest paid jobs? Again is this because they haven’t focused on their career? Would you say this about someone who cleans offices? Or are you only talking about ‘professional’ women?

What I said wasn't that they don't face obstacles, or that there's no sex pay gap, but that while so many women choose to take on the role of primary or default carer while their male partners work, things will never change.

We need people in society to do those low paid jobs, but they don't always have to be women. Jobs like office cleaning tend to be part time - women take them to fit around childcare requirements.

What women don't tend to do (pre-having children) is think 'I'm on £25,000, my husband is on £40,000 but actually, my career means more to me than living a £40,000 lifestyle, so I'll go back full time after mat leave and my husband can get a part time job, and we'll manage on this lower income until I can secure a promotion/better job.

What if a mother wants to spend time with their children when they are young? Is that bad?

My mum went back to full time work when I was 5, I went to wrap around care for most of my primary and I hated it. I don’t want that for my kids (a personal choice not a judgment on others) and wanted to be with them.

Why is that seen as negative?

But I’ve worked bloody hard in the last 10 years progressing my career but because I’m part time I’m being overlooked for promotion (I’ve had numerous conversations with managers asking whether I would go full time to take promotion).

If I had not been part time I would be on par with my husband earning wage, with a MUCH better pension package.