Who fancies explaining to me the North South divide?

[Dogsandbabies]

Foreigner here. Increasingly, (amplified by this government's hideous local response to the covid pandemic) I see people joining in at bashing southerners a northerners.

Why is that? Why is there such a divide? And what drives it? Reading here it seems to be mainly directed at southerners so I was wondering what you think drives it.

Wealth inequality. It’s always wealth inequality, nor is it unique to Britain. There have been any number of grumbles and ominous rumbles from rich Northern European states having to support poorer Eastern or Southern European states, and within some of those there are rumbles from richer areas having to support poorer, such as Spain or Italy. In Britain’s case - because I know it slightly better - the south don’t accept that they need, take and exploit northern resources: the north perhaps forgets that there are poor people in the south too and that places are more expensive to live in. Lack of internal travel, destruction of infrastructure in the north and breakdown of internal communications finish it off. The question is how big is it going to get.

Thank you all. A very interesting read. And a lot for me to look into in order to improve my understanding.

And thank you for staying polite. I was worried I was starting an argument!

That the North voted in this Tory government, voted for brexit, and are now being really fucking horrible about Londoners missing our Xmas has widened the fracture.

Of course all of this happened as an act of desperation and despair because of decades-long structural disinvestment, decline and neglect of the North (and Midlands), by a succession of London-centric governments. Most recently in the response to Covid and government assessment of whose personal and economic suffering actually matters.

I didn't do any of those things but I understand why people did. They felt left behind and forgotten about. These were protest votes.

The northern Tory-voting was an anomaly of course. Southerners do it all the time though! Which is why, from a northern English perspective, Scottish devolution seems a very, very bad idea, as we'd be left subjugated to southern English Tory rule forever.

@KaptainKaveman

The South is London centric; people see themselves as cultured, well spoken and cosmopolitan. They view Northerners as uncultured Bresxit voting philistines who can't speak properly and work down the pits except there aren't any pits now thanks to the Tories.

Northerners see themselves as the salt of the earth, hard working, long suffering, the heart of industry. They perceive Southerners to be effete, pretentious virtue signalling lentil eating over paid lefties who all live in million pound houses and vote labour because they can afford to.

There, that pretty much crystallises the stereotypes for you. HTH.

Perfect!

From
A down to earth crusty northerner type

The U.K. is hardly the only country with a massive divide between regions. Italy is, if anything, worse than Britain. Milan, Lombardy and the north are at least as wealthy as the south-east of England, while Naples, Calabria, Sicily etc are more deprived than any region of the U.K.

In Spain, Madrid, Catalonia & the Basque Country are much more affluent than Andalusia. In Germany the south & west are much more affluent than the north & east.

It's daft. I'm from the South West, I'm working class, with relatives (including certain very rich ones) from the North. We don't slag each other off.
In fact my ancestors are from all over England & Scotland.

@ThePlantsitter

I'd say the divide is a bit different currently. I grew up in the North and now live in London.

I totally get the anger about lack of investment in the North because it is real, and Londoners do tend to dismiss the provinces in a very irritating way.

Equally London -not the South of England necessarily- does not show otherwise bigoted thinking in the way that northern towns do. That's not to say there are no open minded people in northern towns, of course, but it is not the norm to be accepting of difference.

That the North voted in this Tory government, voted for brexit, and are now being really fucking horrible about Londoners missing our Xmas has widened the fracture. I won't be going back. I miss the scenery but currently would never mind but hearing the expression 'I speak as I find' EVER again.

Hang on....other than London, the bloody South voted for Brexit too. As did Lincolnshire, Wales and Cornwall. Here in Manchester we did not.

The South also has a far bigger history of voting in Tory governments over many many years.
Why are you holding us to a different standard?

Two words: miners’ strike

I am just about old enough to remember how we were treated in the North East, seeing the swathes of police vehicles gathering together, it was scary as a child and I wasn’t even in one of the mining villages.

I spent most of my childhood in what is currently termed London and the South East. My parents moved because the shipbuilding industry was closing and that was my dad’s job. The lack of understanding about anywhere north of Peterborough was astonishing. Then, suddenly, in the mid-90s it became cool.

I was raised in the Home Counties, studied & worked in London, then moved north with ex for a few years.

Both places had good bits obviously but the worse bit of the south (to me) was the number of people who think they are important because they earn a lot of money.

In the north, the worse thing I found was the level of sexism in the workplace.

Just my experience. I live in the south but further away from London now.

Thatcher did a lot of damage but it started before then. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrying_of_the_North

@lottiegarbanzo

A great example of current London-centric thinking determining large-scale investment priorities, even when it's supposedly designed to benefit 'the north', is HS2.

This is all about being able to get to London 10 or 20 minutes faster (and onwards into Europe, ooops!), from a handful of Midlands and Northern locations.

There is congestion on the existing N/S train lines which needs tackling but many business travellers don't actually seem that bothered about an extra 10 minutes on a train, where they can work anyway. The real challenge for businesses in most Midlands and Northern cities, is East / West routes, from one northern city to another, which are woefully slow and undeveloped and which do cause daily costs and delays.

But tackling those real barriers to northern economic growth wouldn't be a single big glory project and, by not centring London, would be seen by many as a 'regional project' not a 'national' one.

Yes, projects like this annoy me. Plus differences in things like school funding.

A really interesting thread. What it confirms to me is that, the hatred is not against people, it's against the powers that created (and continue to reinforce) the divide.

The whole levelling up talk is cuckoo too. At best they'll match the funding that wealthier areas receive, but all that does is maintain inequality.

I've lived up north for the last 20 years but grew up in the south.

One thing that strikes me is the south-centricity of the media. E.g. listening to a national radio station, the presenter will say 'here's something to lift your spirits on this dark, rainy day' - and the weather's lovely and sunny up north, but they can't see beyond the fact it's pissing it down in London.

Just picking up something that someone said upthread about how the north/sound divide became entrenched during the Thatcher years.

Yes!

I live in London was working up in Stockport the day of Thatcher's funeral. There had been murmurings in London and possibly planned 'the witch is dead' celebrations in Trafalgar Square but it was nothing compared to up north.

Homemade signs in peoples' windows, everyone talking about it. I wore red shoes and lots of people mentioned them to me, recognising their significance immediately.

I think one big differences that even in the most deprived bits of Leeds/Manchester - drive quite a short way and you're in the hills.

Drive from Manchester to Leeds on the M62. You go past lots of places with deprivation - Rochdale Halifax Huddersfield Bradford and so on but you're up high on the more and you see the degrees around each place and the green and the hills.

Whereas the south east to me feels like one giant built up area full of traffic and no space/hills.

Granted many people in those poor areas don't ever get to do that of course. I'm thinking of the phenomenon of people in Branford never leaving for the much greater job opportunities in Leeds - only 10 miles away if that. Or kids in Manchester that have never been to the lakes.

I'm thinking of the phenomenon of people in Branford never leaving for the much greater job opportunities in Leeds - only 10 miles away if that.

Yes, but due to low investment in transport, the commute from Bradford to Leeds is shit. Either take your chances in a tailback on the M62 or spend 30 minutes crammed in the aisles of the 07:52-this-train-is-expected-at-08:21 Manchester Victoria to Selby service.

I lived and worked in London for a couple of years (I’m from the midlands) and the snobbery was unreal! I was referred to as a “northerner” by everyone I worked with and a “country bumkin” I’m from Worcestershire

@chaosisaladder

I lived and worked in London for a couple of years (I’m from the midlands) and the snobbery was unreal! I was referred to as a “northerner” by everyone I worked with and a “country bumkin” I’m from Worcestershire

Happens up north too, though. My husband has a strong West Country accent and people up here think it's hilarious.

Sick of this lie being repeated. The north did not suddenly go over to Labour. they just didnt vote for Corbyn or any other party, with a slight gain to the Lib Dems. its still overwhelmingly the south of england which votes for the Conservatives. Some half-wits saw 'labour not won as expected in the north' and have translated this to 'the north gave us this conservative government'.

And to be honest you think this stuff is exagerated but then you actually experience the crossover and so much of it is actually real.

*over from labour to conservative

I have lived in Greece and France and although I am sure it exists in other countries it isn't as profound
In France and Italy it’s really profound, Northern Italian Always resent the poorer southern regions, they always perceive them as uncultured , lazy and reliant on government handouts. During the the first wave of the pandemic when the virus was centered in the North it was a a national matter but when it shifted in the summer to the south , the north was blaming the south for their lack of quick planing !

Some half-wits saw 'labour not won as expected in the north' and have translated this to 'the north gave us this conservative government'.

Honestly, as a Northerner in the South it was AWFUL to watch the Tories win those Northern seats. Because it was obvious that those Northern towns would suffer most under a Tory govt and really difficult to understand how that wasn't obvious to those voting there, too.

I wrote my post when I was really pissed off at an old school "friend"'s post on Facebook laughing at Londoners losing our Xmas. It's really difficult to maintain loyalty and even empathy when people are saying that. But I'm not stupid enough or emotionally reactive enough to think that everyone thinks that way.

Obviously the South other than London is deeply entrenched toryland but it felt like betrayal when those Northern towns views for this shower of twats. I do get that that sounds ridiculously emotional but I think the rifts can only heal if we're honest.

The stereotypes regularly trotted out on Mumsnet make me laugh. The London ones are the worst.

I’m a Londoner and apparently we’re either all living in crime ridden stabber central choking on polluted air m, dodging bullets and abusing our children by not bringing them up somewhere along fields...or we are deluded champagne socialists who all live in 3 million pound houses when we’re not flouting covid rules to go to our second homes in Cornwall. All 9 million of us 😘