Fire and rehire

[Someonesayroadtrip]

What happens regarding pension and are you classed as on probation? As if starting again?

You should get a letter from the company detailing all this.

Everything is very vague. They never answer a direct question.

I thought it might be different for each company but wasn't sure. Thanks.

Take it you’ve been there under two years in the U.K.?

No been there 17 years but assume I'll be back to 0 afterwards.

It'll depend on what happened, OP. How did it come about?

sometimes the only thing that changes is your wage. which may have little effect on your pension but holiday entitlement wage seniority are questions to ask about.

Were you actually fired? Or made redundant from one position but then taken on for another?

Oh, lol, sorry, the term is new to me, the company are doing it to everyone, or rather a whole all the engineers, British Gas, just like British Airways did. Nothing to do with me personally.

@Someonesayroadtrip

What happens regarding pension and are you classed as on probation? As if starting again?

Employees would keep the same base pay and pension. Newspapers reported re BG.

It is likely that if the new contract starts immediately, or shortly after the old one ends that the employee will have preserved continuous employment.

They can’t just fire employees without good reason. That’s what industrial tribunals are for.

And if they fire and rehire in the same position that proves you were good enough to be taken on again so their firing takes are bollocks.

And if it’s a case of making people redundant they can’t take you back into the same job. That proves you weren’t redundant.

I think you need to look carefully at the terms they are using and get your union’s advice.

Sounds dodgy.

Unless they are making a bunch of you redundant and re-employing you on other terms and conditions in a different role. They might get away with that.

@Elieza

They can’t just fire employees without good reason. That’s what industrial tribunals are for.

And if they fire and rehire in the same position that proves you were good enough to be taken on again so their firing takes are bollocks.

And if it’s a case of making people redundant they can’t take you back into the same job. That proves you weren’t redundant.

I think you need to look carefully at the terms they are using and get your union’s advice.

Sounds dodgy.

Unless they are making a bunch of you redundant and re-employing you on other terms and conditions in a different role. They might get away with that.

Yes, it's a company wide thing. Well the British Gas engineers. They want them to significantly increase their hours (no extra money) and unsurprisingly they have said no. So they are firing them all and rehiring them on these increased hours and pay cut, cut holidays, sick pay, and effectively implement a system if they take longer than 40 minutes in a job (for a service for example) they will have to come back in on their days off and work them time back.

They have lost 11,000 staff in the past few years and haven't replaced those staff, so the staff are already run raw, especially Working though Covid and "volunteering" for food banks as per company's request. now they want to increase that an extra 12 hours a week for some if they are busy. Plus the working back of hours when jobs take longer they the average, They refuse to employ more staff they just want to make the staff They have work more, for less money.

They're not strictly firing and rehiring, that would be unlawful. They're giving workers two options, accept new contracts on less favourable terms (but continuing their existing service), or risk being made redundant. It's a divide and conquer tactic, you all take less money/ more hours, or we'll play you off against each other and some of you will lose your jobs. The unions are aware and I believe the workforce has voted in favour of strike action. However there's little the unions can do if BG dig their feet in.

In answer to your questions, if you (they) accept the new contract they would not be on probation, their employment would continue from the old contract. They won't lose their old pension, but I wouldn't be surprised if BG don't try and downgrade that offering at some point too.

To be clear, what BG are doing is immoral, but this is the way employment rights are going in the UK, the government want deregulation. The fire and rehire phrase comes from the US, where in most states, it is lawful.

@Hayeahnobut

They're not strictly firing and rehiring, that would be unlawful. They're giving workers two options, accept new contracts on less favourable terms (but continuing their existing service), or risk being made redundant. It's a divide and conquer tactic, you all take less money/ more hours, or we'll play you off against each other and some of you will lose your jobs. The unions are aware and I believe the workforce has voted in favour of strike action. However there's little the unions can do if BG dig their feet in.

In answer to your questions, if you (they) accept the new contract they would not be on probation, their employment would continue from the old contract. They won't lose their old pension, but I wouldn't be surprised if BG don't try and downgrade that offering at some point too.

No, they are not making anyone redundant. They are firing anyone who doesn't agree to the new terms and rehiring them instantly back on the new terms.

@Hayeahnobut

They're not strictly firing and rehiring, that would be unlawful. They're giving workers two options, accept new contracts on less favourable terms (but continuing their existing service), or risk being made redundant. It's a divide and conquer tactic, you all take less money/ more hours, or we'll play you off against each other and some of you will lose your jobs. The unions are aware and I believe the workforce has voted in favour of strike action. However there's little the unions can do if BG dig their feet in.

In answer to your questions, if you (they) accept the new contract they would not be on probation, their employment would continue from the old contract. They won't lose their old pension, but I wouldn't be surprised if BG don't try and downgrade that offering at some point too.

The entire point is they can't afford to lose more staff, that's the problem they have already got themselves in. They haven't enough staff and risk massive fines for breach of contract already.

If they offered redundancy that would be something. They aren't.

@Hayeahnobut

To be clear, what BG are doing is immoral, but this is the way employment rights are going in the UK, the government want deregulation. The fire and rehire phrase comes from the US, where in most states, it is lawful.

It's horrific isn't it? I didn't even know these practices existed, they are making personal threats to staff and making offers to try and persuade them since the no vote. They literally messaged them privately saying if they company goes under it's their fault and can they please just accept so they can get their bonuses and share holders their deviants. 😆 so bizarrely our of touch with reality it's unbelievable. I feel like I've been transported back in time.

The company probably feels they have the upper hand with poor job prospects for those who choose not to take the new contract.

Is it a TUPE situation?

It's not a TUPE situation, it is a redundancy situation, just as with BA. They can afford to lose more staff, they'll just pile even more on those who stay.

BG has restructured numerous times over the past few decades, and this is what they do every time.

OMG that’s horrific.

And it will only get worse once we out of Europe and start making up rules as we go along.

Scary times.

@Hayeahnobut

It's not a TUPE situation, it is a redundancy situation, just as with BA. They can afford to lose more staff, they'll just pile even more on those who stay.

BG has restructured numerous times over the past few decades, and this is what they do every time.

It's such a crazy situation, engineers are literally working their asses off already, the idea they have to work more is exhausting, engineers are leaving on mass already, I really don't think it will survive the new contacts.

I feel it's probably being set up to sell on, they have done a few things to make it seem like it's got a future but not invested in it. Every year they staff have had things get worse for their terms and pensions.

Customers are rightly furious, they are waiting weeks for appointments and having appointments cancelled last minute, engineers are like most other businesses having to isolate at various times for Covid related reasons which puts further pressure on the others and further delays jobs. Customer service is dismal but that's a while other issue.

It's a mess, it's a mess the management made but are putting all on the heads of engineers. Engineers have asked for extra staff for years but they haven't been listened to.

Now they are at an impasse, either way it doesn't look like the company can survive this, the refuse to renegotiate, engineers have said they will work more, of course they will, but not under the current terms as it means working so much more and the new system (CTAP) means they can be in situations where they have to come in for free and work for free, it's bonkers. And that's what their managers are telling them to do, they are saying, it can't work because of x, y and a and the local managers just say, well if you find yourself stuck on a Job etc then just work on that day or come in on your day off and then you won't face disciplinary.

I know lots of jobs are crap, it's less about the terms and more about how level of bullying and treatment is allowed to happen in 2020 in the UK. I feel like I have stepped back several decades before employees had any rights. It's bonkers. They are now staying ten will double pay them this month, as a bonus for signing, if they don't sigh they will take away their pay on February to pay for it. Which means they will more heavily taxed this month and the have no pay February. I appreciate it will work out at the end of the tax year, but for many that's a huge hit.

@Elieza

OMG that’s horrific.

And it will only get worse once we out of Europe and start making up rules as we go along.

Scary times.

While I agree, and furious we are in this situation to begin with, I was reading this last night.

www.lewissilkin.com/en/insights/court-of-appeal-decides-that-unions-do-not-have-a-veto-during-collective-bargaining

From how I understand it, the company trying to divide the voters after voting and manipulating people by approaching them personally was illegal under uk law, and subject to heavy fines for undermining the unions. However the EU court of appeals overruled it. Not sure what that means going forward now precedent has been set. Annoying though, it completely undermines any strength unions have.

@fallfallfall

sometimes the only thing that changes is your wage. which may have little effect on your pension but holiday entitlement wage seniority are questions to ask about.

Yeah, their wage is affected, so they have told them it won't affect Terri pension but it will. They have been very uneconomical with the truth and refuse to answer basic questions. Hence why I asked on her. It's just appalling.

The engineers are motivated and are "happy" to make changes but not one that's 1. Won't work 2. Will result in significant loss of staff 3. Undermines safety (if they don't complete a job within ten average set by the company they have to work that home back 4. Serous'y affects their life work balance especially for those who have partners working opposite hours with children and there will be no way of predicting when they will Finish anymore.