Is school allowed to just close?

[MinecraftMother]

Morning gang,

My kid's primary has decided to close because there's "only a few kids in because the other bubbles are off".

There is a whole year of kids willing and able to go to school, but they've decided to close Friday and Monday to do a deep clean - of a tiny country primary school.

Do schools have this power, on an individual level to just decide to close?

As a bit of context, we've not been very happy with the school's handling of itself over the crisis.

There's also the worry involved in finding childcare etc - absolutely impossible at the moment.

I feel like lying down in a dark room for a while... 😆

@asifiwould

The school I work at will be closing soon if we get many more positive cases/students isolating because it will not be worth the expense of opening for the small amount of kids coming in. Wasn't really referring to schools making a profit.

Plus, we will need to do a deep clean too.

Thank you for all your thoughts.

I see that the school faces a difficult decision and won't be right for doing wrong, as it were.

I need to work and my 8 yo needs to learn - so closing is a big deal. If I were a SAHM who was good at the online learning thing, then I might have a different view.

I think part of my thinking comes from the way we were told (3pm on the day they closed?!) and also the fact that it has been like this since last Weds - so they've had a chance to think about it. Why the sudden rush and then immediate close.

Also, my husband is a bio med engineer and specialises in viruses and drug delivery and he thinks the surface thing is a red herring - leaving it over the weekend has the same worth in cleaning it. So that, whether true of not, has added to my chagrin lol!

School hasn't been super in lockdown - I have three in three diff schools and the girl's school has been incredible but that is private, so I get that it would differ even though it shouldn't.

We had a chat with someone who works at the school but not a teacher, and they said "a lot of people have turned up with asthma this year" and I think husband and I have lost our confidence in them a little. He more than me. I think teachers work really, really hard - but this year, at this school, I think they've let themselves down.

I am also aware there will be a million things going on in the background that I don't know about and maybe I'm being unfair in thinking that closing for two days, when they have the weekend, is unreasonable. I can't help but think that this is another opportunity for a couple of days off. I know that won't go down well, but it is how I feel :(

Anyway, I'd better get on - my 10 hour day won't work itself (am dealing with 8yo and trying to work, not getting that done, so inevitably, will be working into the small hours, as I have three nights this week already). Me and all the other mothers I suspect!

I don't think the fact it's a small country primary school makes much of a difference. Small country primary schools aren't exempt from covid, unfortunately.

Your husband and you might have an opinion on cleaning but the school have to follow policies set by the government and risk assessments produced by the school.

I don't understand your point about asthma. Are they suggesting people are attempting to work from home when they don't actually need to? None of our staff who suffer from asthma are at home. They're all in school working as normal. And some are severely asthmatic

@LindaEllen

I don't think the fact it's a small country primary school makes much of a difference. Small country primary schools aren't exempt from covid, unfortunately.

Yes, I am aware that being small doesn't make it exempt from Covid, thank you.

I mention the size of it because it's not like it is a 2300 square foot secondary with tons of rooms to clean.

I don't believe it will take them 4 days to clean.

The amount of kids who've been attending has been this few since last week - why the sudden snap decision to close?

Whether or not they are right to want to close the place to clean it, there has to be a better way of dealing with it? Getting a firm in over the weekend would make sense - it hasn't all happened in the last two days. It's been like this since last week.

I know someone who is likely to lose her job because of this. She herself is a teacher at a private school as is expected to show up. She's a single mother out of an abusive relationship (frankly, she's a fucking shero). She gets the strong impression that her school simply isn't going to "put up with this much longer" as she's often calling in to say "can't come in, kids are off".

Another woman bearing the brunt - we've regressed 40 years.

I digress.

@sherrystrull

Your husband and you might have an opinion on cleaning but the school have to follow policies set by the government and risk assessments produced by the school.

I don't understand your point about asthma. Are they suggesting people are attempting to work from home when they don't actually need to? None of our staff who suffer from asthma are at home. They're all in school working as normal. And some are severely asthmatic

Yes, they were making a dig at workers who came out as severe asthmatics who couldn't therefore work during the first lockdown with the key worker kids, and would have to be on reserved duties until the pandemic was over...

I am not so sure but there do seem to be fewer staff there than usual - when I do go to the school, even I've noticed that. I would never have thought anything of it, save for the person who actually works there made that dig. I suppose they'd know and we've all worked with people like that before, who like to take advantage when they see an opportunity.

I wonder if we'd been warned/given some notice as opposed to zero notice, if I'd be more sanguine about it.

Probs not.

Is this the first time that the school has closed for CV19 related reasons this academic year?

If so, then your teacher friend can't really blame the school if she's had to call in sick due to unwell/isolating children since September.

As you know, from March to July most of the children in the country weren't actually in school. Incredibly difficult if you are a teacher in a school that expects you to go in and your children are in a school that isn't open, but hardly the individual school's fault!

Is your dh up working until the small hours too btw?

I have three in three diff schools and the girl's school has been incredible but that is private, so I get that it would differ even though it shouldn't.

Its much easier to provide all the extra stuff when you have more funding and, often, smaller classes to start with. A private school has many advantages when it comes to these kind of situations over state - and funding and resources (including technology) is probably the biggest factor when it comes down to it.

We had a chat with someone who works at the school but not a teacher, and they said "a lot of people have turned up with asthma this year" and I think husband and I have lost our confidence in them a little. He more than me. I think teachers work really, really hard - but this year, at this school, I think they've let themselves down.

What was she suggesting?
That the staff were lying about medical issues, and claiming to have asthma when they don't? Or making out their asthma is worse than it is?

The asthma thing would also have only been 'an issue' in lockdown 1 when it was on the vulnerable list, as for most form of asthma is was removed later on. Only severe asthma is on the lists now generally, and the school will have, and know, the medical and health issues for their staff, so would know if they were lying about it.

TBH I am also incredibly shocked at the blatant lack of confidentiality that member of school staff has, let alone how unprofessional she has been to make such comments to a parent. She should be reported for that alone.

I am currently off sick due to complications following Covid, and was classed as clinically vulnerable beforehand - though in school since September and wfh prior to that. I would be horrified to find out that some other school staff was discussing that with our parents!

I can't help but think that this is another opportunity for a couple of days off. I know that won't go down well, but it is how I feel sad

Chances are the staff may still be in school helping with this deep clean. Many school staff are having to support the general cleaning in schools as it is at present, as there is no extra funding to pay for it to be done.

If school is closed they are also obliged to provide remote home learning. The rules for this were changed and tightened at the end of October. So they are likely involved in doing this too, alongside their other jobs.

But no, I am sure you're right. bet they are all sat at home, feet up, watching daytime Tv with a cuppa.
Or maybe they are on Mumsnet slagging off parents instead when they are supposed to be doing their 10 hour day. Who knows?!

I don't believe it will take them 4 days to clean.

They are taking TWO working days, not 4.
Are should they work unpaid at the weekend to do it?

One of the schools local to me had positive cases just before half term. They did a deep clean over half term, but had 72 hours quarantine period before doing the deep clean. Maybe your school is doing the same

No, the teachers aren't cleaning, nor helping. That we do know - it's a company - they won't deal with cleaning and get this company in.

Maybe the 72 hrs thing is the issue and it'll be done on Monday by this company, maybe they left it too late to get in this company's books.

What they did to is have this amount of kids in/off since last week and told us at pick up on Thursday that school would be closed until the following Tuesday.

I can't see any reason for that, save for poor management.

You’ve jumped the shark now OP.

Those lazy bastard teachers not even doing the cleaning themselves and failing to know in advance when PHE would demand deep clean and therefore not booking the company themselves.

*in time not themselves

An excuse for a couple of days off?!

Have you any idea the guilt and stress involved in children missing schooling for staff? 2 days off does nothing but create more work for staff and more pressure when asked to educate your child to their usual level despite a whole host of factors making that hard.

I genuinely have never met a teacher who would think like that - and I've met some hideous teachers!!!

@MinecraftMother

No, the teachers aren't cleaning, nor helping. That we do know - it's a company - they won't deal with cleaning and get this company in.

Maybe the 72 hrs thing is the issue and it'll be done on Monday by this company, maybe they left it too late to get in this company's books.

What they did to is have this amount of kids in/off since last week and told us at pick up on Thursday that school would be closed until the following Tuesday.

I can't see any reason for that, save for poor management.

Hmmmm, you clearly don't think much of the school and have a major issue that they are prioritising the health and safety of all of the children and staff in the school as it clearly inconveniences you. You sound very self absorbed and selfish.

One of the difficulties with fee-paying schools is that as the families are wealthier, they travel more. The very first case in our LA of Swine Flu 11 years ago was a family from DD's school that the father had picked it up whilst traveling on business. Similarly very early cases of Covid-19 were families at school that had skiied at February half term in Italy. One family were actually in Wuhan during the initial outbreak because they travelled to see family during New Year festival.
My neighbour's child that attends the school is currently home for two weeks SI...

Of course, now DD is in the maintained sector, things are no better- last autumn the school closed for a two day deep clean...not for noro, but for rats!

If there is an outbreak then closing for a deep clean sounds like a good idea.
Schools round here are closing because not enough teachers.

We had a company in for a deep clean twice since March - once after a case in the EYFS building and again at the start of lockdown 1.
All the teachers had to go in to clear surfaces, de clutter, move furniture, throw books, take home any washable soft furnishings etc to ensure that cleaners could just clean effectively and efficiently.
The assumption that this is just so that teachers get a day off is deeply unfair, and at this point veering towards offensive. I hope the teachers in your school don't get wind of this attitude.

@RobertsUncle

We had a company in for a deep clean twice since March - once after a case in the EYFS building and again at the start of lockdown 1. All the teachers had to go in to clear surfaces, de clutter, move furniture, throw books, take home any washable soft furnishings etc to ensure that cleaners could just clean effectively and efficiently. The assumption that this is just so that teachers get a day off is deeply unfair, and at this point veering towards offensive. I hope the teachers in your school don't get wind of this attitude.

Well if they do, hopefully they'll read the OP properly and see that I don't think that.

Go ahead vipers and jump on - but you can't say that despite the situation subsisting since last Tuesday it was reasonable to decide the school is closing and give notice at 3pm on the day it is set to close.

Or is that being unfair to all the poor hard working teachers in my little one's school?

I'm also not entirely sure if you were being obtuse @AppleKatie but I don't believe for one second, not for one second, that anyone other than a cleaning company should be cleaning the school. Certainly not the teachers. But I can see how that was an easy win for you, so go ahead...

I can't help but think that this is another opportunity for a couple of days off.
That's what I read that made me think you thought they were shirking. Glad to hear you didn't actually mean it.

Yes my comprehension is dreadful.

No, the teachers aren't cleaning, nor helping. That we do know - it's a company - they won't deal with cleaning and get this company in.

I can't see any reason for that, save for poor management

Look you can characterise me as obtuse.

I prefer broken by people like you and your utter entitlement and a system which is vilifying people and local systems that are trying their damndest night and day to keep your children safe in this fucking scary time.

You do realise school don’t need to share their reasoning with you?

Perhaps they have more possible cases within the bubbles that have shut. Perhaps more staff have needed to go off to isolate.

Either way it’s a decision made to keep everyone safe. Hence getting in a team of professionals to do the cleaning.