Can my employer ask me to attend an Absence meeting whilst I'm signed off?

[EboracumNovum]

Background. My elderly dad was diagnosed with life-limiting illness and became bedridden around the same time as the first lockdown. Mum is also in her eighties and we have no other family so since then I have been trying to care for/support them whilst working full time and raising my teenager largely single handedly.

By August I was on my knees, occasionally self-harming and suffering from suicidal ideation. I was referred to the local MH team by my counsellor & GP. By the time I spoke to them I was back at work (school support staff) and things had calmed down a bit but in the last few weeks dads health has taken a nosedive.

I was signed off 10 days ago with depression and anxiety. Have been averaging 4 hours sleep a night and suffering increased asthma and panic attacks so bad I've had to resort to taking diazepam.

3 working days after submitting my certificate I received a letter from work asking me to attend a Level 1 Absence meeting which is scheduled to take place 11 days before my certification ends.

Can they do this? As far as I can see from the Sickness Policy they sent me I don't even have sufficient absence in the last year to warrant this level of meeting, although have previously been signed off for similar reasons nearly 2 years ago.

I'm not in a union but am going to try and speak to GP, ACAS and Carers UK on Monday.

Bump?

I don't think they can but bumping too -hopefully someone useful sees this

Yes. NHS policy (in every trust I’ve worked for at least) is that any absence over 14 days is long term absence and some form of absence management is required. If someone is off for a fixed period of time, for example if they have had an op that needs 6 weeks off then a face to face meeting probably wouldn’t take place during the until period but more complex absences need some sort of discussion - and it’s helpful to be able to discuss any adjustments needed as early as possible so absence isn’t further extended while they are hashed out. We would endeavour to meet in a convenient place for the employee including their home or via phone if preferred/needed and I imagine now that it would be remote anyway. The aim would be to assess there is anything we can do to support the employee back to work. If the consensus is no then that’s fine and a review period is put in place.

OP if you're not subscribed to a union you can still get advice from the school's union.

Challenge it. State clearly "Level 1 absence is for staff who've had XX days absence and I've only had XX days, so don't qualify for this".

Hope you're ok and please don't let this stress you out

Yes, your employer can do this and it may be related to the nature of your absence rather than the length of time. Absence meetings are to give an employer insight into how to support you to expedite a healthy return to work. I would advise you to embrace it, share as much information as you can and help them support you as much as possible. Good luck!

Sadly from.previous experience I don't anticipate much practical support will be forthcoming.

They are great in an emergency but very inflexible when it comes to longer term issues. They will direct me to staff support and counselling services but what I really need is understanding and flexibility.

Sickness guidance meetings or similar can be held while you are off, especially when people are off with potentially open ended conditions such as you mention. The employer has a duty to find out how to support you to come back to work. It's a bit different when someone has a cast on their leg for six weeks. We have two members of staff signed off sick with MH issues and they have attended sickness guidance.

Hi op. I'm very sympathetic as I'm signed off word the same just now (though different causes). I'm also a lone parent.
I'm fully expecting an absence meeting to be requested soon. Since I've had one in a previous post I know what to expect, I will be asking for a move to a different team and a phased return. I know they will grant the latter. I also expect them to ask me what reasonable adjustments will help me return to work.

It’s probably automatically triggered a meeting with the number of days. Honestly the best thing is to contact whomever runs the sickness in your school and explain what’s going on. Have you told them everything or just sent the sick note in?
I’d also contact them by email so it’s all laid out.
It sounds like you aren’t in any fit state to be returning. This meeting might be in place to offer you support of some sort but really there’s nothing they can do just now and you are getting help elsewhere, although I worked somewhere it meant you could get fast access to CBT or counselling.
They may just agree some kind of contact schedule and not have the meeting. They do have a duty of care so need to keep in touch.
It’s hard to know how it works where you are but these meetings aren’t always negative and I’ve been in them where staff have been told to stay off. The formal nature of the invites makes them seem worse, so they should have rung you as well to explain what’s going on, especially with the nature of your absence (and I would tell them that too, that it’s made you anxious etc!).
Good luck

Yes they can expect you to attend meetings whilst signed off. If your doctor gave medical evidence that you are not fit to attend they should postpone it but not indefinitely. If you still aren’t well enough to attend they may hold it in your absence and you can provide a written submission.
It’s a shame you aren’t in a union as they could have arranged for a rep to attend with you.

@nevernotstruggling (what an appropriate name...I know the feeling!)

Sorry you're in a similar position. Due to the nature of my job and changes to other staff member's working hours I don't think I will have any options...besides handing in my notice and claiming carers allowance which I've been desperately trying to avoid.

Had got a handle on the panic attacks until I received the letter. I knew what it was when I saw the envelope but it took me 24 hours before I could face opening the bloody thing.

@Lindtballsrock (they so do!) I can take a colleague in and although I'm not in union I have someone who is well versed in that kind of thing in mind so hopefully they will be able to attend.

I once attended an absence interview with a union rep beside me.

From the beginning the head of department made it sound like a disciplinary and was going on about other staff having to do my work and how the department has fallen behind as a result. My union rep immediately jumped in and warned them that bringing disciplinary issues into a properly certified absence is a breach of not only employment law but their own procedures. They were implying that the fact that the work had fallen behind was my "fault" for being ill when I too was suffering panic attacks and depression.

In effect they did nothing to support me and it cost them dear because I was able to show they had violated their own procedures. They terminated my contract. The union got a lawyer and I got 10k compensation which I used to start my own business.

I hope you get more support from your company than it did. If you are not a union member insist upon having someone accompany you as a witness to what is said. It could be a work colleague,. a welfare rights worker or even a friend. Be sure to keep a paper trail of whatever happens in this situation.

Thanks @sneakysnoopysniper

I certainly won't be attending alone. Ultimately the buck stops with the local council so hopefully it won't come to that.

@sneakysnoopysniper goodness I'm very glad you posted! I might need that knowledge in the future. Very much appreciated!

I know they are allowed to. But I find it unacceptable that this is deemed reasonable/ok, law wise.

If someone is under stress of say parent dying, how could it be deemed reasonable that they attend a stressful meeting.

How is that even allowed to happen? It beggars belief.

The meeting is not meant to be stressful. The employer has a duty of care towards you and not to contact you when you are obviously having a hard time could be regarded as negligent. It’s best for you and them to keep in contact, for you to feel you are supported and for you to have a successful return to the workplace when you are ready. Unfortunately, some managers do not understand this.

In short - yes, they can.

Work have a duty of care to their staff and they should check in with you to make sure you're okay and to see if they can do anything to help.

Some workplaces will say that these meetings don't have to take place in work, or even in person. My old company used to hold them in a local coffee shop - the idea being you're not on company property and hopefully don't feel as pressurised or stressed, also there's then less chance of co-workers seeing you and being nosy!

If someone is under stress of say parent dying, how could it be deemed reasonable that they attend a stressful meeting.

The meeting isn't supposed to be stressful - you may be off sick due to a dying parent but you're still employed and work are allowed to contact you and see how you're doing - either to see when you're going to be able to come back (so they can arrange long-term cover if necessary) or to see what support they can offer you while you're off.

You can't just go off sick and expect no contact from work for several weeks or months. I know OP has only been off a few days but it's standard for work to contact you while you're absent.

Yes they can if that’s what their sickness policy states. Plus they have a duty of care to keep in touch with you anyway to see what support you need fo back into the workplace.

Keep a copy or every email and a note of what is said in the meeting and every telephone conversation you have with them.

My employers fell down in ways that were absolutely amateurish!

For example I had had an appraisal with my manager only a few weeks before I went off sick. If such an appraisal is in any way lacking the manager HAS to make it known to the employee and discuss measures for improvement. If this does not take place then the appraisal is deemed satisfactory.

At the meeting my HOD said he had "seen the amber light" on my performance some time ago. I asked him if this was the case why was it not raised at my recent appraisal? He was unable to answer except to mumble that he did not know exactly what was discussed at that meeting with my manager. I pointed out that as HOD it was his DUTY to know the result of an appraisal, especially if it was other than unsatisfactory.

It was for childish blunders like these that my employers ended up offering me 10K to go away quietly rather than take them to a tribunal.

@Oblomov20

I know they are allowed to. But I find it unacceptable that this is deemed reasonable/ok, law wise.

If someone is under stress of say parent dying, how could it be deemed reasonable that they attend a stressful meeting.

How is that even allowed to happen? It beggars belief.

Exactly. I was quite prepared to be contacted say, halfway through the month, but to receive this letter 4 days into my sick leave now means I'm just stressed and anxious about the meeting on top of everything else so the sick leave is of no real use whatsoever.

I have been told in the letter that I will be attending my workplace at x date and time, rather than given any options about where/when it takes place.

You are allowed to have someone called a "McKenzie Friend" accompany you as a witness and to help you state your case. This can be anyone such as a solicitor, welfare rights worker. family friend or relative. Since there is always more than one of them then you should not be set at a disadvantage by being alone and without witnesses to any points you want to make. I know from experience how slippery employers can be. Im not saying this is the case with your employer but you have a right to protect yourself if need be.

I would write to the employer stating that you will be accompanied by a MF. If you feel that you cannot find someone suitable by that date then I would write back postponing the interview stating that you feel you will be at a disadvantage if attending alone and without relevent advice.

You could try going online to one of the organizations or charities who deal with mental health issues to ask for advice. They may be able to recommend someone in your area to represent you. Someone like a teacher or lecturer might also be useful , someone who is well educated and can argue a case.