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So what is the difference between cultural appropriation and cultural appreciation?

60 replies

Soubriquet · 01/11/2020 05:08

I keep seeing some beautiful dia de la muertos posts on Facebook at the moment, but so many comments say “don’t do this(dress up) unless it’s your culture”

But why not? I mean, some of the costumes are gorgeous, so why can’t I wear something like it, even if it is appropriation.

OP posts:
WitchFindersAreEverywhere · 01/11/2020 15:31

It confuses me.
When in doubt, I ask my daughter, who is the Wokest of Woke creatures on the planet. That way, I can avoid the Witchfinders.

DeeCeeCherry · 01/11/2020 15:38

No colour of people can own a hairstyle

Obviouspretzel and no colour of people should open their uneducated uncultured traps and diss cultural hairstyles either but they do, don't they? Affecting confidence, hair choices, job prospects. The nerve.

This cultural appropriation question keeps coming up. Strangely. Did you ask on FB then OP, and get the expected answer? Or did you not, and choose instead to ask on mostly White/non-Mexican Mumsnet for measured answers?

Branleuse · 01/11/2020 15:40

the way I see it, if youre not taking the piss out of the culture then its ok.
Hence blackface, a hilarious sombrero or native american costume or an ugly "witch" are all shitty, but if you are doing it in a respectful way, then should be ok,

Obviously plenty of woke people would be outraged by lots more things than that, although theyd still think it ok to dress as a hooknosed witch, but not for example a *mystical traveller"

its a minefield

BiBabbles · 01/11/2020 16:09

I think a lot of appropriation talk ignores that much of it started from businesses and governments taking cultural things wholesale and selling them on out of context for their own pockets to the detriment of others. It's only recently that it's gone into people's private homes.

For me (as a Mestizo who celebrates Día de Muertos), it's cultural appreciation is being invited to do something and taking part, which is something a lot of us do. Before lockdown, my DD1 shared in her Spanish class a common video used to explain and invite families to take part.

Appropriation is when someone is gaining money/reputation/respect for something that people within the group are often marginalized, misunderstood, and you get more credit for it than those it originates with. So, no one really gets that for jeans, but lots of people misunderstand Día de Muertos - and some of the worst are the ones trying to 'protect' it - worst I've had a couple years back is a White Brit who overheard me tell a mutual friend that I'd been so happy to find a tinsel skull decoration in the shops, said person went on a rant about how much it angers them to hear people mix up Halloween and Día de Muertos and then tried to explain it at me. When I started to correct that it's only at this time of year because of colonization and used to last a month around August with different tradition,, some which have been lost, they then tried to tell me oh yes, because it was originally a harvest festival (no it's fucking not and that doesn't even make sense for Central and Southern Mexico which has a very different climate to the UK, but this person felt really confident pulling that out of their ass).

Reminding people that the Bond movie with Día de Muertos parade was the first time Mexico City had one and they kept it because they liked it so much. It wasn't really seen as universally Mexican until fairly recently, Mexico has a lot of different cultural groups and many are mash-ups of each other and others.

So if you want to wear skeleton costumes/makeup, or make an altar with photos and marigolds and offerings, and discuss the dead and your thoughts on death, decorate graves, go for it. Photos for your private collection, great. If you then feel the need to post it online as many internet personalities do to get recognition for doing this, I'd ask you to consider why you feel the need for that recognition/benefit from your appreciation and that you can't be surprised with the internet as it is that some will get mad. I likely wouldn't unless it was a real amalgamation of Celtic Halloween (with the dead being scary, very much separate from us) with Día de Muertos (dead being honoured, recognizing it's what we'll all become), but I wouldn't view it as appreciation either.

Fressia123 · 01/11/2020 16:19

As a fellow Mexican I think @BiBabbles has got it right.

My local Faux Mexican restaurant has decided to have a Day of the Dead themed night and it's just an excuse to have shots of tequila. That's utterly wrong on all levels.

justanotherneighinparadise · 01/11/2020 16:31

If anyone white decided to start a witch hunt on twitter against the black actress who has been cast as Ann Boleyn can you imagine the fallout from that. The screams of racism. No one would dare utter a word as people are too scared.

GlowingOrb · 01/11/2020 16:33

A few years ago there was a big dust-up over a style of earrings. A style of earrings that were very much a part of my culture and were extremely popular when I was a teen. Suddenly we were told by 20 year olds that white women wearing them was appropriation. They had been “ours” long before these young women were even born. In fact, I still had mine in my jewelry drawer and they were older than those protesting.

That was the end of me believing in cultural appropriation.

dontwantamirena · 01/11/2020 16:43

If anyone white decided to start a witch hunt on twitter against the black actress who has been cast as Ann Boleyn can you imagine the fallout from that. The screams of racism. No one would dare utter a word as people are too scared.

If I’ve understood you correctly, then a white person calling out the black actress would indeed be racism. Black actors and actresses are not given as many leading role opportunities as white ones, particularly in historical settings and black stories are not told. Anne Boleyn being white is not central to her story so it doesn’t matter who plays her unless it is intended to be 100% accurate, which these dramas never are.

BiBabbles · 01/11/2020 16:52

Oh yes, it's getting nearly as bad as Cinco de Mayo. Shops see Mexican holiday and it's like of course it has to sell tequila, right? Maybe some really dodgy looking burritos thrown in and for this one, we'll just add skulls and our spookiest fonts because the dead have to be scary. Can't possibly have a positive view of our mortality and connecting with those who've died before us.

I'm quite happy for people in their homes to connect with their dead loved ones through sharing our traditions, and I can be a sucker for a not-spooky skull/skeleton decoration sometimes, but if people could just not sell their disconnected imagery of it (there are alcohols associated with it in some regions, shockingly none of them are tequila) or harass people about it without it benefiting Mexican indigenous communities in any way, that would be more appreciation.

justanotherneighinparadise People screamed all over social media about a black mermaid and claimed that erased Danish culture, let's not pretend most people are scared in the slightest to say anything about race-switching in casting or anything else to do with Hollywood.

Soubriquet · 01/11/2020 17:06

justanotherneighinparadise People screamed all over social media about a black mermaid and claimed that erased Danish culture, let's not pretend most people are scared in the slightest to say anything about race-switching in casting or anything else to do with Hollywood.

They are still shouting about it. It’s the live action film of the little mermaid and because she isn’t fair skinned and red haired, they aren’t happy.
They have cast a black actress as Ariel, and people don’t like it because she’s white in the cartoon

OP posts:
OverTheRainbow88 · 01/11/2020 17:14

Because it’s getting all the ‘good bits’ of that culture without having to deal with the day to day racist shit that comes with being from that culture as a minority in majority White UK.

WitchFindersAreEverywhere · 01/11/2020 17:27

The little mermaid had skin ‘as clear and delicate as a rose leaf’ in the original. Which makes her green.

justanotherneighinparadise · 01/11/2020 17:50

@BiBabbles

Oh yes, it's getting nearly as bad as Cinco de Mayo. Shops see Mexican holiday and it's like of course it has to sell tequila, right? Maybe some really dodgy looking burritos thrown in and for this one, we'll just add skulls and our spookiest fonts because the dead have to be scary. Can't possibly have a positive view of our mortality and connecting with those who've died before us.

I'm quite happy for people in their homes to connect with their dead loved ones through sharing our traditions, and I can be a sucker for a not-spooky skull/skeleton decoration sometimes, but if people could just not sell their disconnected imagery of it (there are alcohols associated with it in some regions, shockingly none of them are tequila) or harass people about it without it benefiting Mexican indigenous communities in any way, that would be more appreciation.

justanotherneighinparadise People screamed all over social media about a black mermaid and claimed that erased Danish culture, let's not pretend most people are scared in the slightest to say anything about race-switching in casting or anything else to do with Hollywood.

I’m amazed anyone said a word. We’re they stuffed straight back in their box by an angry mob?
justanotherneighinparadise · 01/11/2020 17:50

@WitchFindersAreEverywhere

The little mermaid had skin ‘as clear and delicate as a rose leaf’ in the original. Which makes her green.
Pmsl. How very dare you!!!!
mbosnz · 01/11/2020 18:23

If a person doesn't understand the story, and the value, of what they want to have, just because it looks cool, that to me, is cultural appropriation.

In NZ Maori culture, Ta Moko is a matter of mana, it is very spiritual, and it's not just a cool design, when done properly, it represents the journey of the individual being give the esteemed gift of the design and the moko.

Twats from overseas (and also from NZ who have no bloody idea and are likely the ones who whinge if they're exposed to a little Te Reo), who think it looks cool and go find someone to do a Maowri looking design - that's appropriation.

And Maori are fiercely protective of their culture and its icons, and very averse to people ripping it off.

DeeCeeCherry · 01/11/2020 22:35

If anyone white decided to start a witch hunt on twitter against the black actress who has been cast as Ann Boleyn can you imagine the fallout from that. The screams of racism. No one would dare utter a word as people are too scared

twitter.com/SaltyDuchess/status/1322141683128115200?s=20

Just one of the many 'Twitter outrage' threads against the casting of a Black woman as Anne Boleyn. Similar thing on other forums too. I really don't think the 'well there'd be outrage if White people played Black historical characters' Tweeter is blessed with many brain cells. The irony..

chomalungma · 01/11/2020 22:55

And Maori are fiercely protective of their culture and its icons, and very averse to people ripping it off

The Haka is very good to watch. What would happen if a rugby team adapted it for their own use because they saw the effect it can have?

BlackForestCake · 01/11/2020 23:54

@silentpool

It is ridiculous. Are non-Americans banned from wearing jeans then? I've put the whole issue on ignore.
Levi Strauss was German.

Everybody who isn't German should be banned from wearing jeans.

Actually, so should Germans until they unlearn their propensity for double denim.

turnitonagain · 01/11/2020 23:59

Some people love Mexican culture and have learned about the traditions through travel or education or personal relationships.

That’s very different from someone just wanting to look cool in a costume on Instagram even if they couldn’t find Mexico on a map.

Day of the Dead is a real holiday to remember one’s ancestors, it’s not just about skeleton makeup.

WeSearchedHereWeSearchedThere · 02/11/2020 00:12

To me it’s primarily the way it’s approached. “Fancy dress” is pretty much always going to be appropriation, whether that’s a primary coloured “Indian headdress” or a “mad nun” costume. Then there’s a massive grey area which isn’t as offensive as fancy dress (which is where I would put the Adele example), then there are people genuinely interested in the culture who make active efforts to understand and respect.

The point about minority/majority is interesting. My friend lives in Jamaica, I talked to her about the Adele furore, she said everyone she knows there thought she looked brilliant and couldn’t understand what the fuss was about!

Devilesko · 02/11/2020 00:20

I hate all these Boho bloody Gypsy themed boutiques and wish they'd fuck off with their "Free Gypsy Spirit" I saw one discover the "Gypsy in you".
Sell Boho free spirited stuff, but drop the Gypsy label.

Soubriquet · 02/11/2020 07:08

@chomalungma

And Maori are fiercely protective of their culture and its icons, and very averse to people ripping it off

The Haka is very good to watch. What would happen if a rugby team adapted it for their own use because they saw the effect it can have?

I love watching a haka

Very hypnotising

OP posts:
PurBal · 02/11/2020 07:16

I have a shalwar kameez from a wedding I went to in Pakistan. I went shopping with a group of Pakistani women who gave me advice. It is absolutely beautiful and I look great in it. I wanted to wear it to a Christmas party in the UK. But it hangs in my wardrobe because I'm caucasian.

0blio · 02/11/2020 08:51

@Caeruleanblue

I'm Scottish - tartan is everywhere - it should be reserved for those of proven Scottish heritage only.
And those of Scottish heritage should only wear the tartan(s) they are entitled to. I wouldn't dream of wearing a tartan that isn't mine.
chickenyhead · 02/11/2020 09:14

I adore dreds, but I am white and wouldn't get them.

As said up thread, mine might be an interesting conversation peice, whereas POC have been shamed for not having white hair.

Hopefully, over time, when things truly are equal, this wouldn't be an issue. But right now, it doesn't feel like a valid option to me.