Benefits question, older out of work person

[picklemewalnuts]

I've just started helping someone I don't know well with forms about benefits. Can anyone who knows the system give me a pointer?

He's on UC, and is expected to show that he's looking for work. He's 63 has sciatica, COPD and asthma. He's depressed and anxious. He's been sending in sick notes from the gp. He wants to know if he can effectively retire early.

He has no internet.

I can support him locally, get him a dinner dropped off, fill in forms for him.

I know nothing about benefits, pensions etc. We did a form about his mental health, and he'll have a phone call about that in three weeks.

Can anyone advise? What should he be doing, what should he expect? Where can I find him some telephone help, with benefit type questions?

Unless he has a private pension he can access now then he'll have to remain on universal credit until he gets his state pension at 66.

If he's not well enough to work he should be put into ESA so he's not expected to job search. He will likely need an assessment to confirm this.

Oh and CAB are the best people to speak to.

Sorry, and when you say you're dropping a dinner off if that because he can't afford food or because he's not capable of preparing meals for himself? If the later you may want to speak to adult social services.

He sounds like he should be getting PIP if he, isn't already

I'd also advise looking into ESA as it might be that he has a limited capability for work.

Get in touch with citizens advice, they should tell you all you need to know

If he's already claiming UC, he would need to claim the disability component of UC in addition to what he currently receives and not ESA - ESA is a legacy benefit whereas UC is the new benefit that replaces it.

At the moment, he should receive the standard amount of UC at £409.89 pm and the housing element to cover his rent. If it doesn't cover his rent then he can apply to the council for Discretionary Housing Payments to make up the shortfall in his rent.

If he's sending fit notes to UC then eventually they'll send him a UC50 form to fill in and he can submit medical evidence. Then he'll have a health assessment and then get a decision. If he's deamed incapable of work, he'll be put in one of two groups: one group his UC income stays the same but he won't be expected to seek work or the other group where his UC will increase by £300 pm or so and he won't be expected to seek work.

In the meantime, get him to apply for Personal Independence Payments - he needs to apply before he's 64. If he applies before he's 64, he can carry on getting it. PIP is not means-tested and will not affect his UC or any other benefits.

If you're not sure, check the Citizens Advice website and get him to call them for a benefit check.

Thank you all. That was quick!

I'll read more carefully in a minute, and probably ask some questions.

Thank you! Lots of avenues to explore there. Thank you for the explanations. It's all very complex when you are starting from zero knowledge.

Re his dinner delivery, it's more about tempting his appetite. He's not interested in food (or anything else, I don't think), so it's to see if a delivered dinner tempts him to eat more.

Is he underweight? According to the NHS guidelines?

So is the delivered dinner something that you cook and take to him, or a takeaway?

I'm only asking because i'm slightly worried he might be taking advantage of your good nature. How has he coped for the last 40 years?

It's a local community kitchen, so he's been added to the list. I'll go on the rota as a volunteer to do the collection and delivery once a week.

He wasn't at all demanding- the forms were getting him down because his literacy is poor. The answers he gave made it clear he's pretty depressed. I think he'd be happy to sit in his flat and never go out, to be honest, and I'd let him- but I'll offer a few things first in case something cheers him up a bit, even if it's just that someone knows he's there.

I would strongly advise against doing this yourself if you don't have the knowledge or experience.

The benefits system now is a NIGHTMARE to navigate and at this current time those working in dwp are massively overwhelmed.

To give you a sense of how bad it is to attempt it yourself I am disabled inc mental illness but I also hold 2 degrees - 1 in nursing and 1 in English and I've worked in the civil service and I still have learned the hard way not to even attempt to complete the forms myself

They are designed to "trip you up" to wear you down so that the majority of first claims are rejected

I had my first rejection and fell apart on gp who I happened to have appointment with that day. She signposted me to a local mental health help group and they were completely unsurprised when I told them what happened and they also then signposted me to the welfare rights office

Being civil service trained I'd kept a photocopy of my first claim and took that in with me, the advisor pretty much immediately found huge gaps in the info I'd provided that I'd thought (based on how the form was worded) I wasn't supposed to include, she also picked up on issues in their response which they weren't supposed to do

She helped me to appeal and subsequently achieve a successful claim.

Direct the person you are trying to help to the social care dept in your local council, they will have experts who not only know the system inside out but keep regularly up to date with changes and know local waiting times etc They can also, with his permission represent and advocate for him

Where I live they're called "welfare rights advisors" but they have different titles in different councils.

Personally I've had very poor experiences with CAB on this matter - various offices

Whether it's UC or ESA he gets depends on whether he's in a full service UC area and his personal employment history, some people are still eligible to claim ESA. This is one reason why local knowledge is important

And thank you - for caring and making the effort to support this man.

Thank you Graphista (your name autocorrects to the most unusual Graphitstabs, incidentally). I'll look them up. It's a bit odd that the local council offers welfare rights support to offset the unfriendliness of the system, though!

@Graphista that is the singlehandedly the most informative post I have read on MN. I know tons of vulnerable people where I live who rely on the kindness and expertise of regular people to help them with their forms - and it is a nightmare. Like I know how to claim for myself - very straightforward, no complicated illnesses or dependents etc.
Very often we can only help them so far, then we signpost them to CAB, but they don't have all the answers. So thanks for the info.

It varies by area as where I am the CA is excellent and any sort of benefits advice role in the local council(s) went years ago. Any support comes from local charities.

I work for a local citizens advice (and started there as a volunteer) and we offer excellent support with UC, ESA and PIP applications and appeals - we have volunteers who specialise in helping people to complete the forms, and they are checked by benefit specialists. Obviously we are just one local Citizens Advice and others will differ in the quality of help they give, but please don't write off all Citizens Advice on the basis of one Mumsnetter's experience.

Your friend will stay on Universal Credit but will go through a "work capability assessment" and if I assessed as having limited capability for work and/or work-related activity, he won't have to work. He's giving in sick notes atm but will eventually be asked to fill in a UC50 form which is long and I would advise getting help to do it, from Citizens Advice or a similar local service.

Some useful info about claiming UC when sick/disabled here:
www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/universal-credit/claiming/getting-universal-credit-if-youre-sick-or-disabled/

ESA is irrelevant (it's an old benefit and he is claiming UC instead) but he might be entitled to PIP in addition to UC. More info here:
www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or-disabled-people-and-carers/pip/before-claiming/check-you-are-eligible/
www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/personal-independence-payment-pip/pip-self-test
If he is likely to be eligible, the first step to apply is easy - he just needs to phone and give some basic information. He will then get a long PIP form - again, I strong advise getting help with the form.

Sometimes charities for specific health conditions (eg mental health) have helpful advice on their website about benefit applications and condition-specific points to include.

@AnotherEmma

I work for a local citizens advice (and started there as a volunteer) and we offer excellent support with UC, ESA and PIP applications and appeals - we have volunteers who specialise in helping people to complete the forms, and they are checked by benefit specialists. Obviously we are just one local Citizens Advice and others will differ in the quality of help they give, but please don't write off all Citizens Advice on the basis of one Mumsnetter's experience.

Your friend will stay on Universal Credit but will go through a "work capability assessment" and if I assessed as having limited capability for work and/or work-related activity, he won't have to work. He's giving in sick notes atm but will eventually be asked to fill in a UC50 form which is long and I would advise getting help to do it, from Citizens Advice or a similar local service.

Some useful info about claiming UC when sick/disabled here:
www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/universal-credit/claiming/getting-universal-credit-if-youre-sick-or-disabled/

ESA is irrelevant (it's an old benefit and he is claiming UC instead) but he might be entitled to PIP in addition to UC. More info here:
www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or-disabled-people-and-carers/pip/before-claiming/check-you-are-eligible/
www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/personal-independence-payment-pip/pip-self-test
If he is likely to be eligible, the first step to apply is easy - he just needs to phone and give some basic information. He will then get a long PIP form - again, I strong advise getting help with the form.

Sometimes charities for specific health conditions (eg mental health) have helpful advice on their website about benefit applications and condition-specific points to include.

I would second this. i am also employed by citizens advice although funded by a charity. CAB has excellent advisers although that may vary between branches. As far as PIP goes - this will look at the difficulties he has with everyday activities like cooking a simple meal and washing and dressing himself. Not everyone with COPD and asthma will struggle with this so it really depends how severe it is. For UC he should continue to hand in sick notes and wait to be assessed. If awarded LCWRA that will be an extra £341 a month on his UC claim and no requirements to look for work. It does take a while to be assessed though particularly at the moment as there is a back log. If he has worked and paid full NI contributions over the past 2-3 years then he could look at claiming New style ESA alongside UC. This is a contributions based benefit and whilst he wont be any better off financially by claiming it as it is deducted pound for pound from UC, it does give him class 1 NI contributions towards his state pension and is apid fortnightly so may help budgeting/ cashflow.

Just to add he should also apply for help with council tax reduction if he has not already done so.

Solid advice as ever from Babyroobs 👍

Thank you! More helpful information there. We'll do it a bit at a time, getting help with each step as we go. What you've all said has helped me understand where we are starting from, and where we need to get, if you see what I mean.

I've also looked on the local council website. They don't seem to have quite what I was looking for, but they have advocates which may be helpful. I've emailed to see what comes.

Age U.K. have also been recommended as helpful, so I'll ring them on Monday and see what's on offer there.

Hopefully if we can sort out his work situation he'll be less anxious and depressed, and be more open to other things.

YY Age UK are helpful, I always recommend them to pension age clients although they probably help people slightly under pension age too.

FWIW I wouldn't worry too much about new-style ESA for now as he might not be eligible and if he is, it would be a "nice to have" rather than essential (as Babyroobs said, it gives you class 1 NI contributions which he may or may not need depending on his existing NI record).

I would prioritise the WCA (work capability assessment) for UC, and PIP.

Good luck and as PPs said it's very kind of you to help him, especially with such limited F2F services atm. (We are still only doing phone, email and webchat sadly.)

Graphitstabs  love it!

Yes the irony of local govt providing a service to counteract the inadequacies and poor policies of central govt hasn't escaped me or my current advisor either!

Party wise my council is a coalition though with snp in majority

@Doingtheboxerbeat thank you  glad it means more than one person getting the help they need.

@wegetthejobdone I can only go on my experience - 5 different CAB offices in 4 different council areas and all were utterly useless and knew much less than even I did at that point!

I've now been claiming benefits (inc tax credits) in one form or another for 18 years.

I've been outright lied to by dwp staff

told I was ineligible for any benefits because:

Ex was army
I'd not worked for over 1 year
I had no relatives in the area I was living and claiming in

Also have learned the hard way when handing forms or supporting documentation in (not a factor at the moment I know) to:

Get a photocopy of supporting docs made by them there and then (don't wait for a day or whatever) and get original docs back

Get written confirmation of handing docs and forms in including date and time and staff members signature (and make sure they sign their real name - yep I've had them try and put a false name!)

Because if you don't there's every chance they'll "lose" your forms and claim you never handed them in!

AnotherEmma - agreeing to disagree is one thing but please don't dismiss my many years experience as a claimant in several different parts of the Uk.

And as you can see op, even the CAB posters are giving differing contradictory advice - because they are giving that advice based on how it works where they live, which has been part of the problems I've experienced with them.

"agreeing to disagree is one thing but please don't dismiss my many years experience as a claimant in several different parts of the Uk."

You're the one dismissing my professional expertise and that of my colleagues based on your personal experience. I'm not saying you made it up, I'm saying you can't make a sweeping statement about every single Citizens Advice based on your experience even if you have been in touch with a lot of them.

"even the CAB posters are giving differing contradictory advice"
No we're not - if you're referring to me and Babyroobs, we agree with each other.

"Whether it's UC or ESA he gets depends on whether he's in a full service UC area and his personal employment history, some people are still eligible to claim ESA. This is one reason why local knowledge is important"
This is wrong because it's out of date. All areas are "full service" now. The question about whether someone can claim ESA is a slightly complicated one and it depends which type; income-based or contributory. For someone who is already claiming ibESA they can continue to claim it, but no one can make a new claim for ibESA, no matter where they are. But people can still be eligible for contributory ESA, which is called new-style ESA under the new system. So people can be eligible for both nsESA and UC. As Babyroobs and I have discussed on this thread, there are limited benefits to claiming nsESA in addition to UC - it may still be worth doing but not always, it depends on the claimant and if they are already struggling with claims it certainly wouldn't be top of my list when advising. This is where up to date professional knowledge and experience comes in. You might have claimed benefits for years but as you know, the system is changing all the time.

Thankfully @Babyroobs mentioned new style ESA when people were saying he can’t have both UC & ESA. This is why you really should not do this yourself as @Graphista said. You will need access to his full personal finances and medical details and you hardly know him.

With the best will in the world you could make his situation worse. Why would you think it’s odd that the council employ Welfare Rights Officers? They don’t offset the unfriendliness of the system they advise and challenge the decisions which are made by DWP, HMRC, JC+,

@AnotherEmma
This is where up to date professional knowledge and experience comes in ...., the system is changing all the time.

This is so right, there is a reason why welfare rights and CAB are continuously trained and insured. Although I can’t deny that, just like any other employment. they’re not all great at their job.

Indeed. And our standards are high but that doesn't mean people never make mistakes.