Old Books which have racist language/titles

[TheDrsDocMartens]

What should happen to them?
Are they kept but read in context and educationally ‘this is why it’s unacceptable now’? Or get rid of them completely? Does it depend on the book?
I came across the Agatha Christie book which became ‘And then there were none’ with its original title which I can’t bring myself to use. What should happen to those books. Are they history and kept (but out of sight) or should they be destroyed (which brings a whole new debate about banned books).

Think thats worded badly but I’d like other opinions as I’ve over thought this too much😳

Depends. I have an ancient copy of a Thomas book where some boys are sneezed at by Henry after they drop stones on him. The description is that they are black as...

I say ‘black as black can be’ when I read it to DSs. It’s not being used as a slur and is simply an artefact of a different time. Were DSs to ever read it to themselves I would have a conversation before they did so. I have had that conversation about why we don’t use bad English to convey someone being foreign in 1950s Rupert Annuals and that seemed to go in.

You would have to destroy an awful lot of books. And the goalposts move - who is to say that contemporary books don’t contain material/words/views that will appear shocking to readers in 50 years’ time?

That’s part of my point really. Where is the line?

I guess the trend for such books is for them to be disposed of as an embarrassment. I remember having copies of both Little Black Mingo and Little Black Sambo less than fifty years ago. The first title is less jaw-dropping but I remember one of the characters was called Black Noggy. Unthinkable now. I haven't seen either book for years (not that I seek them out) and I doubt we're likely to.

I keep them and read them. They are a product of their time. When I read them I see those terms as shocking, and it reminds me how easily racism and other forms of abuse can be normalised. I'm glad we have made progress from when they were written, but that progress has to continue because there's still a long way to go.

The past is a different country. They do things differently there.

...I don't let my children read my old Enid Blyton stories, though.

@wildrosie I was given Little Black Sambo to read at school when I was in the juniors. I'm 51.

[quote LadyofMisrule]@wildrosie I was given Little Black Sambo to read at school when I was in the juniors. I'm 51.[/quote]
You're not much older than me but I don't remember seeing either of these books in my primary school. Maybe your school year was the last to see them.

I don’t think evidence of the past should be eradicated or suppressed.

Old books contain the voices and mores of the past, however distasteful. To become more civilised, a society has to have some knowledge of where it came from.

So no mass bonfire of unsavoury books.

But no new editions or revised politically correct editions either.

Copies should be carefully preserved just as they are. And people should be able to access them and reflect on their content.

In general, I'm not in favour of the current trend of disposing of artefacts that are the product of less enlightened times.

@WildRosie I have a copy of Little Black Sambo. You can still buy it. I just looked on Amazon and they have it

I agree it depends on the book.

I don't think destroying books is particularly awful - most of the books we're talking about were not made to last (cheap print from the last century is much less durable than any previous era's books). At some point it's fair enough to get rid of things.

I find it really weird that, as a society, we're so concerned about preserving 'the past' at all costs. Yes, of course goalposts change and people's ideas about what's acceptable shift. So what? So that stopped the Victorians from censoring Shakespeare? Not in the least.

Every era looks back at past literature and decides to discard bits it finds offensive. Sometimes those things are recovered again, sometimes not. I think it's a healthy process, to keep reassessing what you read and why.

I think thought that some of the books can be used to show how things have changed. I collect old children's books. My dc have read a lot of them.
The language has changed, not just in this context but in others-like Gay. My ds' favourite book when he was about 7 or 8 in all innocence was "The Gay Dolphin Adventure." I had to explain to the school the context when he had to write his favourite line "You can tell he's gay by the wicked twinkle in his eye".

By taken them out, and destroying them, I think we are depriving children of knowing how we learnt from the past. The past was racist. If we hide children from this they will look at things like BLM and think "what's the problem." Not being able to see that at one point it was so accepted that "work like a *" for example was considered a normal expression. I've come across it in books that would have prided themselves for their understanding of other cultures.
With my dc we used these books for discussion, both on how offensive it was and how these terms were tossed out so easily that it was a constant drip of erosion which is far harder to fight than out and out offence.

And also it shows them that language changes. What was considered PC when I was their age is now considered offensive. What is considered woke now may well be offensive to their dc.

I don't think you should erase history. I did my masters degree on Nazi German architecture and as part of that I had to read Mein Kampf. It's a terrible book and actually reading it showed just how bad it is and how out of date the ideas in it are. That said, it's important to keep copies of this book so people can see how bad it was.

If we hide children from this they will look at things like BLM and think "what's the problem."

Do you really, honestly, think a child will look at footage of black people being shot by the police and think 'what's the problem'? And will then read Little Black Sambo and say 'ah, now I understand'?

I think that is ... unrealistic.

And also ... we are not learning from the past if a person is able to write, apparently without feeling ashamed of themselves, that 'work like a n*' was once 'considered a normal expression'.

To say that, you have to presume that a white-centric perspective and language is 'normal'. It's not, is it?

So 'work like a n*' may have been an expression in common use, but you can bet however far back you like to go, there will have been black four-year-olds saying 'daddy, why does that man say that and what does it mean' and daddy having to explain that it's something white people say and don't worry about it.

@SarahAndQuack

If we hide children from this they will look at things like BLM and think "what's the problem."

Do you really, honestly, think a child will look at footage of black people being shot by the police and think 'what's the problem'? And will then read Little Black Sambo and say 'ah, now I understand'?

I think that is ... unrealistic.

I think the point is they won’t understand the reason why there is a BLM group. Of course it is shocking when someone gets shot, but understanding the years of history makes it easier to understand the reaction when something like this matters.

You see all these things on social media etc when a white person is shot/police officer murdered saying things like I bet no-one takes the knee for them, where are the protests etc. These people do not understand/accept why there are groups like BLM and why the reaction to incidents is so strong.

I am in my late forties and remember reading Little Black Sambo at school too.

It's tricky, isn't it. I am a bit worried about how much Enid Blyton my son reads. I'm pretty sure she still uses the word Negro, I'm trying to avoid making it a thing but have vaguely mentioned that some words are old fashioned so if you don't already use a word, don't start using one you've read...

Books are a vital part of our social history. They document our journey as society, how we grow in understanding and tolerance towards each other.
They are an easy way to describe how awareness and thinking is changing.

For that reason, we should keep them.

I think it can helpful to learn from older books, if they are presented with context and explanations.

The racist and sexist theories and stereotypes in older books are presented much more openly. Many of those beliefs have not disappeared, they are just no longer spoken of in public. They persist more subtly, occasionally breaking through into "inexplicable" acts. And that part of history is glossed over. It can be helpful to learn that history and see the context behind today's cultural landscape.

@Tootletum

It's tricky, isn't it. I am a bit worried about how much Enid Blyton my son reads. I'm pretty sure she still uses the word Negro, I'm trying to avoid making it a thing but have vaguely mentioned that some words are old fashioned so if you don't already use a word, don't start using one you've read...

What do you mean still uses? Any new copies of Enid Blyton will have all the offensive language taken out. I think some of the characters have even been renamed (i.e Fanny, Dick etc.). It's only old copies that will still have them in, so buy or borrow the new versions if you're worried.

@Tootletum

It's tricky, isn't it. I am a bit worried about how much Enid Blyton my son reads. I'm pretty sure she still uses the word Negro, I'm trying to avoid making it a thing but have vaguely mentioned that some words are old fashioned so if you don't already use a word, don't start using one you've read...

I think this is one where you should have a discussion with your son. Much better that he talks about it with someone he trusts, than to cause hurt by unknowingly using racist terms in the classroom.

The thing that worries me is the attitudes, which are more subtle than just outdated words. I reread some Blyton recently and found it quite uncomfortable, in this case the ways the children were treating the servant's child.

I remember reading Little Black Sambo and being surprised years later to see it was considered racist. The story itself is not racist, in fact the characters are portrayed in a positive light, the names used for the characters are obviously racist..