Talk to me about Hybrid cars

[CaveMum]

My car (12 year old Kia Rio) needs replacing, it’s done me really well having only cost £4,500 10 years ago but it’s now nearing the end of its life.

We’ve done our research and have settled on a Volvo XC60 and are contemplating the hybrid version as most of my journeys are short and we have the ability to charge at home (either domestic socket in the garage or we would consider a proper car charging point using the Government grant).

We’ve test driven the hybrid version (which we loved) and DH is test driving a standard petrol version tomorrow for comparison.

We want to do our bit for the environment (hence thinking about the hybrid) and it’s our intention that the next car after this one will be fully electric.

I want to know what other hybrid owners (of any make) would advise before buying one and what do you wish you had known beforehand?

I’m aware that the charging times they publicise are not the most accurate, and neither is the range of the charge, but are there any other points we should consider?

Anyone?

From today's Daily Telegraph:

Plug-in hybrid cars are a “wolf in sheep’s clothing” that emit more than 2.5 times more carbon emissions in the real world than in lab tests, according to new analysis.

While lab tests suggest that PHEVs emit on average 44 g CO2 per kilometre, analysis by NGO Transport & Environment suggests that in the real world PHEVs actually emit 117g CO2/km on average. That compares to 164-167g CO2/km from petrol and diesel cars.

The analysis found that drivers often do not charge their cars, and that some engines automatically switch on even when in battery mode which made it “almost impossible” for them to be driven as zero emissions vehicles.

All of the ten top selling plug-ins in the UK automatically switch on the car’s engine as soon as external temperatures go below 14C, in order to keep the car warm for passengers.

Greg Archer, UK director of Transport & Environment, said: “PHEVs are not electric cars and claims that in cities plug-in hybrids have zero emissions are just mischievous, misleading marketing. Unless the battery is frequently charged, these fake electric cars are actually worse for the climate than conventional cars.”

Greenpeace, which supported the research, said it showed plug-in hybrids should be included in any future ban on petrol and diesel cars, which the Government is consulting on bringing to as early as 2030.

The Government initially announced its intention to include hybrid and plug-in hybrid cars in the ban, but is reportedly reconsidering under pressure from the motoring industry.

Greenpeace also called for a phase-out of subsidies, which can see companies pay less than half the tax than on a regular car.

Greenpeace UK’s head of politics, Rebecca Newsom, said: “Plug-in hybrids are the car industry’s wolf in sheep’s clothing. They may seem a much more environmentally friendly choice but false claims of lower emissions are a ploy by car manufacturers to go on producing SUVs and petrol and diesel engines.”

The Society for Motor Manufacturers, said the report was flawed because it relied on tests that were no longer in use. Mike Hawes, the SMMT Chief Executive said: “However, even the report’s assumed figures show plug-in hybrid vehicles provide more than a 30 per cent overall reduction in emissions compared to petrol or diesel.”

Thanks, I did see the BBC article on that report. However in the BBC report they did also say

“ Transport and Environment's analysis says a key problem with plug-in hybrids is that so many owners rarely actually charge their cars, meaning they rely on the petrol or diesel engine.

Another is that many plug-in hybrid models include design features that automatically turn on the petrol/diesel engine at start-up on a cold day, or will kick in that engine if driver accelerates hard.

The latter mode means that the car's emissions will depend a lot on the driver's behaviour.

"If you always charge the battery and tend to do lots of short journeys, they will have very low emissions," says Nick Molden, who runs Emissions Analytics, a company that specialises in vehicle emissions evaluation.

"If you never charge the battery and drive very aggressively then they can have significantly higher emissions than the equivalent petrol or diesel model," he continues.”

In our situation the car will be used mainly for short journeys (my daily mileage is about 25 miles, the range on the car is 29 - I know that’s a best case scenario but even still it means 90% of my driving will be electric only) and will be kept charged, so we would fall into the category of very low emissions.

Sorry, not answering the question, but just noted you said the range is 29 miles, does that mean- that is as far as it goes on one charge (obviously not including the petrol backup)? I know nothing about hybrids, would love to go electric, but can only afford our 2 polluting 15yr old diesels atm. But I'm a bit shocked by 29miles.

My OH has a 2nd hand hybrid, it is wonderful. He has a short commute to work and he charges it every night, I really don't understand why anybody would buy a hybrid and not charge it. He leaves the cable poking out from under the garage door. The convenience of this perhaps helps.

We switched to a green electricity tariff at the same time as buying the car. So not a cheap change! But we felt that was logical and the right thing to do.

I had lots of doubts about the car, my only regret is not buying it sooner.

"All of the ten top selling plug-ins in the UK automatically switch on the car’s engine as soon as external temperatures go below 14C, in order to keep the car warm for passengers."

That will be a fair few months in the UK.

Are you looking at a plug in hybrid or self charging?

29 miles!

Is that it?

@CallarMorvern

Sorry, not answering the question, but just noted you said the range is 29 miles, does that mean- that is as far as it goes on one charge (obviously not including the petrol backup)? I know nothing about hybrids, would love to go electric, but can only afford our 2 polluting 15yr old diesels atm. But I'm a bit shocked by 29miles.

Yes that is as far as the electric battery will take you, but once that runs out it switches straight over to the regular petrol engine - you don’t need to stop and start the engine again!

It also runs a combined mode which automatically switches the engine between electric and petrol so that it is more economical when braking, pulling away, etc.

@Todaythiscouldbe

Are you looking at a plug in hybrid or self charging?

Plug in.

@Stabbitha

29 miles!

Is that it?

That’s good for a plug in hybrid! Most are 20 miles.

If you want a bigger range you have to buy fully electric, which at the moment have a range of about 200 miles on one charge.

I loathe the term “self-charging”. It’s such a cynical marketing term. Nothing is “self-charging”, unless someone has invented a perpetual motion machine. It’s charged by burning fossil fuel.

Anyway, hybrids are ok in some ways. They improve the air in cities, when the electric motor is more likely to be used. But it’s still burning fossil fuels, AND it’s lugging around two heavy drive trains.

They are at best a stopgap. People who buy them are well-intentioned, and that’s a good thing. But what we need is affordable, decent-range electric cars.

I drive a hybrid. Fully charged the electric range is just under 30 miles, but that doesn't translate to strictly applicable distances, so if you gun it on a hill you might travel a mile but use up 5 miles, but if you are driving steadily on the flat it will go much further than 30miles. Mine also can change between self charging (good in urban driving when braking charges the battery) and hybrid drive when the car toggles between eco and petrol driving.
I do mostly short journeys, not much more than 20/30 miles mostly less so the car runs mostly electric.
At the moment I wouldn't go fully electric if I only had one car. There aren't enough charging points and they're not all reliable that do exist, or you might arrive and find someone else using it already.

If you want to do your bit for the environment get an EU6 diesel. They're cleaner than ever and more efficient than a petrol. Petrol has more co2 and hybrid/electric even more and until we have fully renewable energy fuelling our houses (although apparently octopus do this) then it's the same fossil fuel getting burnt.

Don't believe the hype. Diesel gate is a lie!

@BananaLlamaConCalma

Wait... did you just say that buying a diesel is better for the environment than buying a fully electric car?

Go on?

I have a Mitsubishi PHEV and I love it. Most of my journeys are local and so it is really efficient - my best stat when I've had to fill up with petrol is 85% electric use.

It's not particularly efficient on petrol for longer journeys.

I plug mine into the the garage on a normal socket and it charges fine, probably slower than if we had a proper charging point installed.

I agree with pp's that 'self-charging hybrids' ie Toyota Rav 4/Prius are not all they seem about their 'green' credentials.

I have an outlander phev plug in hybrid and I really like it. It has a range of 20-25 miles and I can commute to work on a charge. Most of my other journeys are local so I rarely end up using the petrol engine.

We had a charge point installed using the government grant so got it cheaper, however bear in mind if you move and need a new charger, the charger discount is registered to the car so if you buy another one it will cost full price (£600+).

It saves a fortune in petrol as my commute although relatively short was in nose to tail traffic.

One poster mentioned above the cold weather. I did notice during the last winter when I needed to defrost my car in the mornings, or turn the heat up the engine did kick in. However once it had got to the temperature needed it switched bcak to electric. It just needs the initial boost.

There a lot of apps you can download too to identify chargers when on the move and we have used it on holiday. A lot of the Public chargers are rapid chargers so can full charge in 40 minutes so we've often stopped at services on the way and fed the kids and come back to it fully charged. Tends to cost £3-4 to charge when out.

I really love mine and when I swap would probably go hybrid again.

My dad has a Lexus RX, which is what's known as a 'full hybrid' (so not a PHEV). He loves it and is now on his second. (The previous one went to almost 300,000 miles before he traded it in.)

The only watch-out I can mention and I don't know if this is the case on the Volvos and other cars, but it's definitely a consideration on hybrid Lexuses is that if the car is parked up and not used for more than a few days, the starter battery can go flat. (These cars don't have mechanical starter motors like most petrol/diesel cars; they use a small 12v battery to activate the car's turning on procedures.)

If the starter battery goes flat it can cause all kinds of expensive problems with the rest of the electrical system, effectively stranding the car. A neighbour of my dad's bought one, left it while they went on holiday, and when they came back the entire car was dead. Lexus wanted a lot of money to fix it so they ended up doing a deal on a new one -- but now she drives it most days to make sure the battery keeps charge, resulting in a number of unnecessary journeys.

May not be relevant at all, but possibly worth investigating.

Aside from the limited mileage. Check the boot space.

We have a hybrid and the battery is HUGE. And the boot is tiny.

Thanks everyone, this is really useful. We’re not quite ready to go fully electric yet, but the intention is to go full electric after this car - aiming to keep this one for 5 years and then part exchange while it still has a decent resale value. Volvo are in the process of going all electric so in the next year or so the fully electric XC60 is due out (the XC40 version is due before the end of the year so the XC60 will be next).

We have a second hand Mitsubishi Outlander (4x4 plug-in hybrid). It works really well for us. The range is about 30 miles and as we live rurally it is enough to take us into town and back again. We have solar panels producing electricity, so we plug it into the mains during the day to charge it, so really it is pretty much free to run. I also like it because it's so quiet to drive.

We have a Toyota self-charging hybrid. We live in a city but have also done motorway driving, and driven to south of France a couple of times. It switches automatically between electric & petrol depending on how you drive. In town I can keep it in the 'eco mode' most of the time (live in a 20mph area).
It's great.

Another here with a Toyota 'self-charging' hybrid. I appreciate its charged using petrol and lost power such as breaking but we do a mix of short and longer journeys and it doesn't use much fuel compared to the smaller and older car it replaced. Plenty of boot room. I just wish it'd fit 3 isofix points in the back and then it'd be perfect for us.

If your domestic fuel supplier is a 'green' one you might get a discount if you have an electric car. I think we're with ecotricity and are on a slightly reduced tariff.
Other bonuses to these cars is preferential parking in some places and quite a few multistorey car parks will have free charging while you park. I use one of these when I go into the office or shopping and it gives me a free (fuel) drive home.

I have had a PHEV - VW Golf GTE for 3 years now
I have been generally doing a lot of short journeys with the ability to charge regularly (fab charging in our local town) and so I do the majority of my mileage on electric only mileage
I am disabled and the bus service is shit from the village plus my job takes me to places off network often so car ownership is a must
The electric only range stated by VW is definitely optimistic but we've generally managed to make it work for us. It has definitely saved us on fuel bills with the electric charging costs more than offsetting the petrol costs. We got ours on a lease salary sacrifice scheme so it also made sense as there was a tax incentive to go greener.
It's great to drive but one note of caution if it breaks down (mine had a random electric fault with the regular battery not the main fuel cell) it can cause lots of head scratching both with the RAC & the VW garage - we don't see many hybrids. Thankfully as it was on lease it wasn't my problem but it did take lots of phone calls to get sorted.
What it has done is open the door to fully electric, from being a sceptic, I'm now sold and next month my fully electric car arrives (jaguar ipace). Which will be charged from our solar panels & battery storage system.