If you’re Jewish....

[RubyFakeLips]

Do you watch any of the ‘if the Nazis won WW2’ type of dramas? This scenario seems to be a more recent trend in tv drama, or possibly it isn’t and I’m only now noticing it!

I’m thinking of The Man in The High Castle, SS-GB or The Plot Against America, but there may be some I’ve missed. I’m interested in if you watch and/or enjoy the filmed versions but you may have read the books too?

Really I’d be interested if you watch any WW2 or I suppose Nazi orientated drama, not documentaries though.

To be clear from the outset, I am Jewish.

@Tootletum not offended at all, your post was considered and interesting. Thanks!

Interesting more so in that you brought up Auschwitz, I too am someone who understands the arguments for it being preserved but would never want to visit and can’t imagine the planning of a holiday which includes spending time at such a place.

I do have distant relatives who were killed in the holocaust but I am mainly of Sephardi heritage and my family did not flee the nazis as such. That being said they were absolutely terrified by the prospect and it remained a very dominating fear throughout my childhood at least, which was 30/40 years post war.

I'm Jewish and love speculative fiction. The Man in the High Castle is one of my favouy books. I have no relatives nor family directly or indirectly affected by the Holocaust as they emigrated from Syria in the late 19th century. However I have plenty of friends who have stories to tell.

@RubyFakeLips yeah I honestly don't get it!! I actually went to krakow just because it was a trip I could do from Berlin in the train, didn't really think about it. But seriously, there were travel agents with signs outside, in garish colours, saying "special offer, 20% off auschwitz when you you book sobibor". I mean, wtf?!

@Fressia123 that’s interesting, do you ever feel scared of concerned about being Jewish?

I don't live in fear, not at all. Modern anti-Semitism is much more subtle sometimes. Making jokes about being good with money, numbers, etc.. I'm no real Zionist but find comfort in the existence of the State of Israel.

@Tootletum how bizarre. I suppose I had assumed that for most non Jews it was a sort of spectacle to behold whereas I would view it as a nightmare.

You mention Berlin and I know some friends and family have been anxious to visit there, again I guess feeling like it’s the scene of the crime and best avoided but I’ve actually been several times. The first time I found seeing a memorial paving stone (not sure of the name) really jarring and made me hugely resentful as I hate being reminded of being Jewish and the whole history that it brings. I’ve been back since and realised these are such an effective memorial.

find comfort in the existence of the State of Israel

This. To me this is actually the crux of it I think, that my family still feels we have to consider an ‘exit plan’ and feel there is, even if very small, a threat, that other people don’t feel burdened by. So unconcerned are they that it’s being dramatised and made as entertainment.

Think MN might have just performed actual therapy on me...

@RubyFakeLips yeah they're called stolpersteine. Very neat way of avoiding the tourist factor.

As a descendent of a survivor, I recommend Maus by Art Spiegelman, a graphic novel which managed to convey how the trauma goes on to affect the following generations.

Really interesting thread!

I'm not Jewish but have been feeling increasingly uncomfortable at the number of concentration camp (auto)biographies that have been appearing in shops. It reminds of the glut of child abuse memoirs a few years ago, which seemed to be cashing in on the trend more than anything.

Maybe that's terribly unfair. Maybe the appearance of these books has just strengthened people to tell their own stories?

As a descendent of a survivor, I recommend Maus by Art Spiegelman, a graphic novel which managed to convey how the trauma goes on to affect the following generations

That is interesting @Frankiegoes. I absolutely believe that trauma continues to affect future generations...I can definitely see it in my own family. I've also heard that slavery has long lasting affects through generations too.

I loved JoJo Rabbit, and almost didn't watch it because it was set in the Second World War. Generally I hate war films- they are either unremittingly dismal, or glorify it, or at least fail to acknowledge it sufficiently. Films about the Nazis and the Holocaust, even more so. I don't need it dramatising to help me understand it, or empathise. I certainly don't want it used as 'an interesting backdrop'. I couldn't visit somewhere like that as a tourist. Then I feel as though somehow I am weak and I should go and face it, and I'm just hiding from it.

DH sometimes watches documentaries- Nazi Megastructures and similar. It is interesting, but I felt it failed to avoid a certain amount of admiration.

I'm hugely conflicted and uncomfortable and that's without being Jewish.

I don't like watching programmes about the holocaust or reading books...although every now and then I do as I feel its important not to forget the horror. I find it really quite unbearable though and I have nightmares about it. Obviously I didn't experience any of it, but it feels closer to me than other historical events as my grandmother's family were murdered. It's not just history to me..it happened to people I know.

There's a field called epigenetics I think, which is relevant to inherited trauma. There is so much to think about from being parented by the children of traumatised adults, to the physical impact on the egg which was in the body of the baby's grandmother and so on.

It makes me think of the Bible quote about the sins of the father being visited upon later generations.

to the physical impact on the egg which was in the body of the baby's grandmother and so on

Oh I must try to read about that...I thought trauma inherited would be about psychological problems being passed on in terms of upbringing, I didn't think it would have a physical impact like that you described..fascinating

I’m not Jewish, but have quite a few Jewish friends, and they’re all appalled by the centrality to UK education about the Holocaust of The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas — as I know are many Holocaust survivor education groups and charities.

I might be way off here, but I've always wondered if the body has a kind of folk memory, otherwise how would animals know what dangers to avoid? Perhaps that sounds silly; I certainly don't mean to trivialise anything.

@LetterFromLorah, I agree with you about the books. It can't all be about people speaking their truth, as so many of them are novels, i.e. fiction.

My dad is Jewish although I wasn’t brought up in any religion. I don’t really like to watch too much WW2 related stuff but of course if you like history and period dramas it is a little hard to avoid as it’s such a ‘popular’ subject. I’m not sure how I would feel about a scenario where nazis win. My dad’s side of the family came here to escape Russian pogroms and I will say it made it uncomfortable to watch Fieval (of all things!) with DD because I suddenly had a lightbulb moment as an adult rewatching something I had enjoyed as a child, and realised it was about my own family and their past.

I am definitely coming from the perspective of someone who doesn’t feel all that connected to their Jewishness though.

I agree with you about the books. It can't all be about people speaking their truth, as so many of them are novels, i.e. fiction.

That's true!

I have taught The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas, but have worked hard to challenge pupils’ responses to it. I take issue with the implication in the book that (spoiler alert here) the true horror of the Holocaust and the concentration camps can only be fully understood when a gentile dies.

I haven’t watched any of those shows, not consciously due to the subject matter, but they just haven’t appealed. I did try to watch Hunters, but turned it off early on. There’s a scene in the first episode where a man is gassed in a shower and I was horrified. It felt so crass. This was at the beginning of lockdown when I was generally feeling a bit sensitive and emotional, so maybe that impacted my response, but I’ve no desire to give it a second try.

I do. It's never really occurred to me to be bothered. I find documentaries and the like very powerful, but the 'if the Nazis won' is just fantasy, and they are always the bad guys. I think I found the Tarantino thing more offensive, with a bunch of Americans winning the war early or something? I don't know. It felt like it was denying all the awful things that happened and turning it into triumphalist fantasy.

I am German, not Jewish though, and find the fascination with these What-If shows quite interesting. They are not my cup of tea but if done well they can be a very good base for discussion.

I think it is vital to talk about this subject, regardless of your family heritage, nationality or religion. We try our best to teach our daughter that being German is not a problem (was difficult in school when they did WWII but the teacher was brilliant) and it will be hard again when she covered the Holocaust later this year or next.

I never went to a concentration camp but I do think they are vital rememberances to a period we should never forget.

I'm Jewish and tend to avoid stuff like this. Definitely where the Nazis win. I don't see the entertainment value in it personally. Can't stand The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas and hate that it's used as education. I would really recommend Judith Kerr's Out of the Hitler Time trilogy though.

I don't take any comfort in the existence of Israel though. That 'homeland' is only a possibility because others have been denied theirs.

I don't.

I'm not practicing, but it makes me very uncomfortable that even though I'm not religious (nor are my family), people would have happily seen me murdered. I don't mind other people watching though, if it brings more awareness to the xenophobia faced by Jewish people.

I wonder if the increase in books is because the generation of people who managed to survive the Holocaust are now elderly and they want their stories recorded for posterity and perhaps as a warning about how this it all came to happen .