Remote working is killing city centres...but what's the alternative?

[Eastie77]

Reading today about Pret cutting almost 3,000 jobs and articles about the death of city centres due to the lack of office workers. My company has announced that all employees can work from home for another year. I honestly doubt our central London office will re-open or at least in the form it took before, ie they may just keep renting part of it for occasional client meetings.

The government is pushing workers back into the office but realistically people are not going to go back while they have the option to WFH and companies have realised they can save on office costs and get the same output from their staff. I am happy to WFH but I really feel for all the local businesses that relied on office workers and are now facing closure. I work close to our office and 6 independent coffee shops and small cafes have closed😔 Not sure what the answer is.

I would have been gutted if teaching had been remote at university; no proper Freshers week, stringent rules on sports which limits the opportunities to travel around the country on a minibus every Wednesday and meet others passionate about the same sport as you, whoever knows what they're doing about halls and houseshares. Yes, the actual academics is important, but I got a lot more out of the uni experience than just from lectures and seminars, and it's unfair to dismiss their upset.

I really feel sorry for students looking at more than a few months of sitting in their bedrooms staring at a screen, at what should be one of the most exciting periods of their lives

Absolutely. I think the reality of starting university this September is that it's going to be really bloody grim and demoralising for the students, who are being used as economic stimulator units.

Even the academic aspect will suffer greatly. Yes, lectures can be replicated pretty effectively online - and most unis have been uploading them for some time, even before this crisis - but so much of uni education these days involves small group tuition and interaction. Yes, this can be done online, but it's nowhere near the same as you miss out on all the normal communication cues and often have to deal with poor wifi. This is particularly the case if English is not your first language or your major is in a foreign language. Then of course, there are those science subjects which require practical lab work. It's a much diminished experience all round.

I did 4 months of remote learning through university. It was incredibly isolating and not the most productive way to learn at all. Our university put a lot of effort in to make it work by making online learning tasks so it wasn’t just reading, but it was still so dry.

I wouldn’t want my children to go to university if courses were delivered solely online. There is a social element.

But in terms of working adults? Flexible working seems to be working best for most businesses. So maybe a 2:3 day ratio for office/home working would be best. Smaller businesses in city centres would still have enough trade but it would cut pollution significantly and people generally are feeling like they have a better work life balance.

It is much harder while the children are at home, and may ease when they go back in September.

I think this period must be the very first time in my life that I'm almost relieved to be middle aged! To be starting out on adult life - whether in work or university - in this era of Zoom 'interaction' would be sad.

Agree. To be starting off now at University or maybe your first job would be awful. What on earth are we doing to young people to limit them so much.

Sadly I very much agree. What happened to envying the young? At ds’s age I was travelling, starting work in London, meeting friends. Even the music is crap now! And that’s not just an oldster talking. The dcs constantly bemoan the fact that music was much more melodious in the past and had variety. They envy the Top Forty when anything could randomly turn up.

I work in a city centre and have had to go back in a number of times in June and July. The Parliament nearby has been busy, so the coffee shops local to the office have generally reopened but all are very very quiet.

The main shopping street a couple of minutes walk away has been the same kind of footfall as a wet late January day, even in mid-summer - almost no one around.

Meanwhile, we live in a village in the suburbs, and it is busy. The coffee shops are all busy, as are the shops, mostly food but also DIY, gardening, and clothes. And the coffee shops are relatively busy, generally, and we can't get bookings for a meal out locally unless we do it a good few days ahead.

I have been driving in when I needed to, as I cannot take public transport at present (asthmatic) - which won't be possible once I am back FT in the office. Parking is €40 per day on top of petrol. I can't manage that.

Of 250 staff in our building, only about 40-50 are going in regularly. And the other buildings are completely closed (another 250 and 100 people respectively). We have been told to expect not to be back in the office until at least December and potentially March of next year. And we are among the earlier returnees in our sector, other than key workers. WFH has generally been working well and work has continued once people settled into it and systems were adapted. But lots are looking to go back ASAP.

Not sure which year it's worst for as students. If you're starting your 3rd year then your 2nd year was curtailed and now you're 3rd year is going to be stilted as well.

At least for first years, they should at least get two relatively normal years in the 2nd and 3rd year of Uni and hopefully after Easter it'll be better this year. They'll just have to make the best of it for the first term.

I am genuinely concerned for first year students, I think it's incredibly unhealthy to encourage them all to move away from home into halls or houses (university halls which they make money from) and then offer them online teaching, I will be disgusted if the university does that- you cannot expect people who have no opportunity to make friends to sit alone in one room studying and not able to mix properly with others. I think there will be a lot of unhappy students and lots may drop out if we fail to deliver at least some face to face interaction.

I personally don't think it's as simplistic as this.

City centres have had massive injections of cash due to various reasons and outside towns and high streets have been dying.

High street stores have moved to industrial estates.

Speaking to local businesses they've all been saying how much more business they have went doing.

Speaking to high street staff they've been saying how busy they've been.

Money doesn't seem to be stopping being injected into businesses perhaps as much as we are being told. Rather there's a shift into which businesses and the location of those.

I'm glad my local - recently opened not long before covid - cafe - which provides decent food at affordable prices and employs local residents is doing better than large franchises.

Maybe there will be a shift that's beneficial in the long run?

Should add I'm not happy that people are losing jobs in large franchises.

I just think small businesses can offer so much and if they are doing well employment is available there rather than a larger business.

But in terms of working adults? Flexible working seems to be working best for most businesses. So maybe a 2:3 day ratio for office/home working would be best. Smaller businesses in city centres would still have enough trade but it would cut pollution significantly and people generally are feeling like they have a better work life balance.

But imagine working in your first job, knowing nobody and having no experience. Having all or most of your "interaction" online would be horrible, especially if you're living in a small flat with no suitable facilities for WFH.

Also, I'm not sure if companies will see the point in continuing to pay full rent for city centre offices if they're only going to be used sporadically. I guess some could downsize to smaller premises but if it's a small company which already only rents a few rooms, they might well see fit to do away with any sort of physical office. Or not. We shall see. It's possible this WFH experiment will be reversed by this time next year. I'm not convinced we're going to see the drastic changes so many seem to be predicting.

@Illdealwithitinaminute

I am genuinely concerned for first year students, I think it's incredibly unhealthy to encourage them all to move away from home into halls or houses (university halls which they make money from) and then offer them online teaching, I will be disgusted if the university does that- you cannot expect people who have no opportunity to make friends to sit alone in one room studying and not able to mix properly with others. I think there will be a lot of unhappy students and lots may drop out if we fail to deliver at least some face to face interaction.

Online courses have a notoriously high drop-out rate and from my experience over the past few months, I can really understand why. When you're sitting alone in your bedroom, in a different city or even different country from your classmates, with none of the social aspects of studying and nobody to encourage or help out when you're finding it tough, many will - and do - ask themselves 'Why bother?'

I think if I were a fresher I would seriously consider deferring... were it not for the fact that the usual things people do in a gap-year - work abroad, volunteer, travel etc - are going to be difficult if not impossible this year. It's just pretty shit whatever way you look at it.

Today's young people really have been left mired in the shit. I'm old enough to have attended Uni when there were no tuition fees. I didn't qualify for any maintenance grants (remember them?!) but my Uni had a hardship fund and gave £££ to practically any student who applied. I think I left with about £1.5k in Student Loan debt which seemed huge to me but obviously pales into insignificance with today's student debts. Back then repayments were not taken automatically and I've met a few former students my age who've said they simply never paid their loans back

I left England and went to work in another EU country for years after I graduated. All straightforward and easy to arrange.

I feel so, so sorry for today's generation and like a PP am grateful I am now middle aged.

@JamieLeeCurtains

I really feel sorry for students looking at more than a few months of sitting in their bedrooms staring at a screen, at what should be one of the most exciting periods of their lives

Absolutely. I think the reality of starting university this September is that it's going to be really bloody grim and demoralising for the students, who are being used as economic stimulator units.

What's the alternative? There's no jobs, they can't travel to do gap years, they can't all defer as the Unis would be bankrupt and those who survive can't take in two years' worth of students next year.

Unfortunately, it is what it is and everyone, not just students, has to accept things for what they are until we're vaccinated.

@IcedPurple

But in terms of working adults? Flexible working seems to be working best for most businesses. So maybe a 2:3 day ratio for office/home working would be best. Smaller businesses in city centres would still have enough trade but it would cut pollution significantly and people generally are feeling like they have a better work life balance.

But imagine working in your first job, knowing nobody and having no experience. Having all or most of your "interaction" online would be horrible, especially if you're living in a small flat with no suitable facilities for WFH.

Also, I'm not sure if companies will see the point in continuing to pay full rent for city centre offices if they're only going to be used sporadically. I guess some could downsize to smaller premises but if it's a small company which already only rents a few rooms, they might well see fit to do away with any sort of physical office. Or not. We shall see. It's possible this WFH experiment will be reversed by this time next year. I'm not convinced we're going to see the drastic changes so many seem to be predicting.

Firms could always turn back the clock and return to having smaller local/regional offices in major towns and cities throughout the regions. Then there wouldn't be the expense for both firms and staff of being in the most expensive corner of the country. Workers could even live/work in their home (or uni) towns instead of having to move to London/SE for the decent jobs. Use the internet, teams etc., for staff to collaborate between offices. So instead of work from home full time, you do say 3:2 where you work from home part of the week and commute to your local town/city office the other days.

@Illdealwithitinaminute

I am genuinely concerned for first year students, I think it's incredibly unhealthy to encourage them all to move away from home into halls or houses (university halls which they make money from) and then offer them online teaching, I will be disgusted if the university does that- you cannot expect people who have no opportunity to make friends to sit alone in one room studying and not able to mix properly with others. I think there will be a lot of unhappy students and lots may drop out if we fail to deliver at least some face to face interaction.

By the sounds of it, students will interact "face to face" anyway, in the halls, pubs, etc. It's the staff who are being protected, so the barriers are between staff and students. Of course the unis won't be "encouraging" the students to ignore social distancing, but I can't imagine they will have the desire or ability to stop students gathering.

What's the alternative? There's no jobs, they can't travel to do gap years, they can't all defer as the Unis would be bankrupt and those who survive can't take in two years' worth of students next year.

Unfortunately, it is what it is and everyone, not just students, has to accept things for what they are until we're vaccinated.

My DS has just graduated and is having an unexpected 'gap year'/deferral. His internship opportunity in Scandinavia no longer exists and he will not be covid-fodder or massively ripped off doing an online non-lab MSc in the UK. He had enough of that from March onwards. Plus the earlier strikes.

Government policy and ten years of fucking up university funding is not any student's personal responsibility.

He's trying be be a bit economically creative from home - we're like Bread with the ceramic chicken for contributions.

He's working whatever hours he can find and doing online stuff.

If course it doesn't help that so many sources of student and graduate employment are disappearing from towns and cities ... to bring it back to the OP's question.

There are those who get it and those who don’t. I don’t know whether they are wilfully blind or just plain ignorant.

There is a thread running at the moment about a graduate deliberating about whether to hold out for a dream job. Aside from the OP’s issue, posters are piling on stating that graduates should take a temporary job, go travelling, volunteer, work in a factory, and go to gigs. And there were a fair number of these posters, too. Factory? Travel? Gigs ? I honestly think some people haven’t noticed this pandemic...

My ds starts uni in a weeks time. It's so sad that he won't experience uni life like his sister.
Personally I have found wfh to be awful, much more stressful than going in. Teams meetings are so tedious, emailing, speaking on the phone, etc everything takes much longer as people are supposed to talk face to face. I read somewhere that zoom meetings use up more of your brain just to effectively communicate. This does not surprise me at all. Luckily I've been able to go in three or four times a week from about June. I admittedly I can walk into work, but I chose where I lived so I wouldn't be so reliant on transport to get to places. Lots of suburbia is isolating, no real hubs, shops, libraries etc so I can't imagine living somewhere like that and wfh. Lots of my colleagues are happy going in, although our role is mainly front facing. I can see the benefits if you have children, but I don't feel wfh is the solution long term.

Teams meetings are so tedious, emailing, speaking on the phone, etc everything takes much longer as people are supposed to talk face to face. I read somewhere that zoom meetings use up more of your brain just to effectively communicate. This does not surprise me at all.

I have read that one of the reasons virtual meetings are so exhausting and stressful is that your brain 'thinks' it is in the office with your colleagues, while your body knows you're sat in the living room, if that makes any sense. So the extra cognitive load in switching back and forth is confusing and stressful. Plus, you don't have the normal communication signals - eye contact, body language etc, and even a delay of 1 or 2 seconds in getting a response makes you fear that your - or their - internet is down.

Much as I used to hate so many meetings, being in a room with actual human beings now seems great compared to 'interacting' with little squares on a screen. One plus is that you can switch off your mike and camera and get the ironing done while your colleagues drone on!

Good, we really don't need coffee shops and cafes.
We need shops, workers should take a packed lunch like we used to do.
I hope the lot close tbh.

@Devlesko

Good, we really don't need coffee shops and cafes. We need shops, workers should take a packed lunch like we used to do. I hope the lot close tbh.

This is typical of the obnoxious attitude shown by so many on MN. Just because you don't use a particular service yourself nobody else should, and who cares if thousands lose their jobs?

Do we really 'need' what you and all those you care about do for a living?

@Devlesko

Good, we really don't need coffee shops and cafes. We need shops, workers should take a packed lunch like we used to do. I hope the lot close tbh.

Maybe, and probably yes, but to switch back from a service economy to a manufacturing economy means unpicking 41 years of political and economic and social history.

It's not Dominic Cummings and Mary Wakefield who will go down first. unfortunately

Last time I checked, Britain wasn't suffering from a shortage of shops.